Discussion Board

I know this is a controversial subject, but I got the following article from Veg Source in my Facebook newsfeed.

http://www.vegsource.com/news09/031612.html

Not that I am surprised. I did some research a month or so ago when the subject of chiropractors was brought up. T. Colin Campbell, Dr. Joel Fuhrman and some others who promote a plant-based diet not only believe in water fasting to promote health, but are members of the natural hygiene movement. Even Dr. McDougall mentions in one of his books the modern plant-based lifestyle has its roots in the natural hygiene movement of the 19th century. I looked up natural hygiene and here is what I found (of course the people who practice this give a different picture).

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... giene.html

The National Health Association Association (formerly called The Natural Hygiene Society) is a small organization based in Tampa, FL that not only promotes veganism, but also water fasting.
As you can see T. Colin Campbell, Dr. Fuhrman and other notables in the plant-based community are members of this organization.

http://www.healthscience.org/

The True North Health Center of which Dr. McDougall is loosely associated and whom Dr. Michael Klaper and Doug Lisle are members,was also begun by Alan Goldhammer who was a chiropractor at the time, but later recieved a degree from an osteopathic college in Australia. Water fasting is an integral part of the True North Center's program. I am not totally dead set against all alternative medicine. Pam Popper of the Wellness Center here in the Columbus, OH area is a homopathic practitioner as are many others associated with the plant-based lifestyle. It's one thing however for such people to give nutritional advice. It's another to tell people not to ingest anything but water. I know the Veg Source article shows water fasting, which is promoted by many of these people in a good light, but I also know that several people who were advised by natural hygiene practitioners died while doing water fasts. The connection between Dr. Campbell, Dr. Fuhrman and other well known promoters of a plant-based diet to the natural hygiene movement and water fasting is cause of concern for me.

p.s For anyone who wants to read about Herbert Shelton, the founder of the modern Hygiene Movement and it's founder, here is an article with reference from Wikipedia. I know it's not the official source, but it gives an overview of the man and his mission.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_M._Shelton

I respect all of the above doctors, and I especially respect Jeff Novick. Here is a previous post by Jeff on the subject:

Wendy wrote:
What do you mean by "Natural Hygiene"?

You once said, "The two philosophies that have influenced me the most over the years are that of Natural Hygiene and the McDougall program."

I bet it's something simple, but wanted to ask.

Wendy


Hi Wendy

It should be simple but it is actually complicated and the reaons is, there are many schools of thought today with many differing opinions, all claiming to be the true proponent of Natural Hygiene.

However, in general, I would say the following principles embody the philosophy of Natural Hygiene.

1. First, do no harm; provide the most effective health care available with the least risk to patients at all times.

2. Recognize, respect and promote the self-healing power of nature inherent in each individual human being.

3. Identify and remove the causes of illness, rather than eliminate or suppress symptoms.

4. Educate, inspire rational hope and encourage self-responsibility for health.

5. Treat each person by considering all individual health factors and influences.

6. Emphasize the condition of health to promote well-being and to prevent diseases for the individual, each community and our world.

7. Fasting is a powerful tool in allowing the body to rest, recuperate and heal itself.

The over-riding philosophy is the body is self-healing, supply the basic needs (water, air, food, sleep, rest, relaxation, mental poise) in the purest form possible, remove all harmful practices and live simply.

While many schools of thought may claim to follow these principles, they do so, but then add in all kinds of treatments, pills, powders, etc etc to "help" the natural healing power of the body, which in most cases, actually interferes and does not help.

In Health
Jeff

I have been familiar with the natural hygiene movement for 30 years, ever since reading Fit For Life by Harvey Diamond. I have Marilyn Diamond's cookbook and love it. But I think, as in all things, there are extreme views on either end of the spectrum of plant-based eating. I personally think strict water fasting is one of them. I realize that is pretty much what the True North Health Center is all about as is the National Health Association (formerly the Natural Hygiene association). I also know Jeff Novick is a natural hygienist and into fasting. For all I know so are many others--maybe even Dr. Mcdougall, but even though Dr. McDougall associates with all those people, at least he doesn't promote water fasting as far as I can tell. In fact, his advice seems quite the opposite. What bothers me is that although there are always disclaimers about water fasting saying it should be supervised, there are also books about it in book stores and libraries and people can do it unsupervised at home, which is risky.

You can also get books on how to do an appendectomy or brain surgery or even trepanning...

Yes, but are they recommended by the people
like T. Colin Campbell, Jeff Novick or Dr. Fuhrman?

Not sure about Campbell but Fuhrman recommends water fasting but if more than just a few days absolutely supervised by experts and he says that currently, True North is the only outfit he knows of that knows what they are doing. He explicitly outlines some of the dangers in his book on fasting.

Here is a link to several comments by Jeff (multiple posts on the page)

http://drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5852&highlight=fasting

All the water fasting done at the True North facility is done under strict medical supervision. The idea of using water fasting to bring the taste buds under control in the fastest possible way makes good sense. Those that have used this method of overcoming cravings quickly seem to have found it quite effective. You can do most anything poorly and water fasting is no different. The way that True North uses it looks proper and done in a completely safe manner. I have met several people that have been through treatment at True North and they seem to be no worse for the wear! In fact, I would encourage those that can't seem to get a grip on their cravings to make use of their services.
It's not much different than someone reading how blueberries are very healthy and decides to eat nothing but blueberries for 30 days. You can't fix stupid. Common sense applies in everything we do. But skeptical is good too. It usually doesn't take much digging to reach a decision if some practice is done properly. I see nothing that indicates anything dangerous is being foisted on anyone involved with True North or in following Dr. Campbells recommendations. Feel free to be specific if there is a particular practice that needs to have light shed on it.
Since Dr. McDougall has hired Doug Lisle one would surmise he is not troubled by the activities of True North.
f1jim

As in most things diet and health related... Jeff does an excellent job of demystifying the mythical detox and cleanses memes so prevalent these days...

While I've never fasted for health reasons... I've often fasted in solidarity with others or as a protest of some abuse or another... Never been a problem for me one way or the other.

Well I just don't know how Dr. Klaper of the True North Center can guarantee that the people who watch his video or read a book about water fasting will not be harmed by it. It is one thing to go to the center, it's another thing to order a book or DVD and do it yourself at home. I am sure there is a disclaimer, but in my opinion that certainly isn't enough. What if someone does a fast and dies? Who at True North would know? The people at True North aren't their personal physicians. They don't know what medical conditions they might have. I think it's dangerous to promote water fasting except under the direct care of a health practictioner. Most people do go on a medically supervised fast sometime in their lives--before surgery or other medical procedures or tests or for other reasons. I worked my way through college as a dietary aide and nursing assistant and so I am familiar with those types of fasts. Watching a DVD or reading a book does not qualify as "medically supervised" in my opinion.

"So what do those of you who defend water fasting think of the Natural Hygiene Movement in general?"
Since we have learned there is a great variety of beliefs and ideas that encompass that movement I fall back on what Jeff described as basic, core beliefs that seem to hold true for those espousing that point of view. Those basic beliefs seem reasonable and harmless. Just like the term vegan can conjure up scary images in people, the devil is in the details. I'm not sure it's best to write off large numbers of people without knowing what they espouse. Our circle revolves around several people that seemingly have no problem with that movement as a whole. My experience with Doug Lisle, T. Colin Campbell, and those people that have partaken of the treatments at True North have been 100% positive. I reserve the right to change my mind.
f1jim

What if someone crosses the street and dies?

People have been fasting without medical supervision since forever. We can't police everyone's personal dietary choices, and I don't know why anyone would want to. Just do what's right for you. Methinks that's enough for anyone to worry about.

And don't forget to look both ways before crossing the street.

Fair enough, Jim. I am not going to throw the baby out with the bath water. I don't especially like the roots of the movement. There are many doctors and nurses in my family and although I don't have faith in all doctors simply because they have the word M.D. after their names (just think of Micahel Jackson's doctor), I do believe in the science behind modern medicine. I am not saying that those in the Natural Hygiene Movement are like witchdoctors, but I am skeptical about things have only anecdotal rather than emperical evidence. I suppose it's whatever floats a persons boat. I do know one thing however and that is that the McDougall program is healthy and backed up by medical research. Until I see a long term study on fasting, I will doubt it's benefits and safety.

Self-deleted post (I screwed up;the post and couldn't delete it).

Show me a policeman or public safely officer who advises people to cross the street in traffic, much less publishes a book or DVD showing them why they should, and then get back to me.

I agree with you on the need to scrutinize carefully most anything we attempt if it seems somewhat outside the bounds of normal behavior. Not eating for several hours or even several days seems a very likely occurrence in mans history. To only have liquid nourishment seems to have been a fairly common occurrence in our timeline. The opposite...endless eating of rich, high fat foods is what is much rarer in our past. We should be warning people about this more everpresent danger, than the rare water fast. I maintain more people are dying from the former than the later. The real danger is in what we are eating, not what we are not eating.Ask yourself how many people will die today from attempting a water fast vs from any of the problems related to overconsumption. Let's put the focus where it needs to be. I, like you, have my doubts about many things that come up as treatments here on the boards, such as homeopathy that have zero science to back it up. But given what it is homeoapthy might make your wallet lighter but it probably isn't going to hurt you either.
The number of people that would be harmed by a day or two of water fasting is probably infinitesimally small. It's very much something our bodies are designed to cope with. I can't see great fear over this issue but maybe I'm missing something.
f1jim