Discussion Board

When I was really into eating raw that question would come up all the time - where are the studies?

The answer most of the time is - it depends on who is funding these studies. Usually you'll have the meat and dairy industries funding studies, so you won't get a lot of huge studies done on plant based diets.

We mostly rely on individual's before & after results, blood tests, photos, etc. And have to trust that the pictures and lab results are genuine.

I pick number 1

Hopeful_guy, you need to reread The China Study again before you go around telling people what it does and doesn't say.

From pages 242-4 in the chapter called "How to Eat" (emphases mine):



So, hopeful_guy, if you want to eat meat a couple of times a week, that's your choice. But don't delude yourself into thinking that you have got Campbell's endorsement to do this.

Dude, oh Terri Terri, you need to learn more about what bad science is.
Let me try to give you an example and maybe you will understand it (although I doubt it). Let's say I do a study where I give people 1000000 IU of vitamin C a day, and another group I give them 100 IU of vitamin C. Let's say I find that those who had 100 IU vitamin C were healthier, I can't go around saying "Hey people you can't have vitamin c at all, I just proved lower vitamin C is always better so let's go down to zero that's optimal".

Another example, let's say I have 2 groups. One of them I give them 10000 IU of zinc a day another I give 10 IU of zinc. Say I find the second group to be healthier, can I go around saying "people stop eating zinc I proved lower zinc is always better so why not go for zero".

If I did that you would say I'm being silly, no?

Campbell says "we can assume" optimal is zero animal products, that's actually his own bias. It's not shown in the data. He has no vegans to show that. Campbell himself says there were no vegans in the study. We have to isolate people's bias and what the science really says. So far, science says go very low on animal products. I don't remember a single long-term study that showed vegans were healthier.

If one day someone shows me that vegans live healthier lives than those who eat 5 to 10% animal products then we can talk.

Furthermore, Dr.Ornich and Dr.Fuhrman both allow animal products in their diet. Oh no, really? Is that so? Yes it is. Check their work. They have done their research too and even though Dr.Fuhrman would love to say you can't eat meat, he refuses to do so because he says the science doesn't support it. See what I mean?

If you want to have a personal preference for not eating animal products then great, but don't go around deceiving others that science says going vegan is the way. Acknowledge that it's your own personal bias, not science.

I have respect for vegans. You can't go around converting others in the name of "science supports our way". It's deception at its best.

This came from my friend Darryl who found it on Esselstyn's Facebook page:

Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr.

‎"The way to break the fat habit is to abstain entirely from eating it just as those who use heroin, cocaine, and nicotine must give them up once and for all. We have all seen what happens with many people who go on reduced-fat diets in order to lose weight. A diet that permits even a modest amount of animal, dairy, and oil fat still feeds the habit. The craving remains. And the moment diet is completed or, more often, fails, the dieter too frequently returns to his or her old habits of eating and regains the lost weight." - -Dr. Esselstyn



Engine 2 Diet
‎"Every mouthful of oils and animal products, including dairy foods, initiates an assault on these [cell] membranes and, therefore, on the cells they protect. These foods produce a cascade of free radicals in our bodies especially harmful chemical substances that induce metabolic injuries from which there is only a partial recovery. Year after year, the effects accumulate. And eventually, the cumulative cell injury is great enough to become obvious, to express itself as what physicians define as disease. Plants and grains do not induce the deadly cascade of free radicals. Even better, in fact, they carry an antidote. Unlike oils and animal products, they contain antioxidants, which help to neutralize the free radicals and also, recent research suggests, may provide considerable protection against cancers." - Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr.

Shell-belle that's very nice. But I will stop after this post because
clearly some people fail to understand the difference between science
and personal opinion/preference/bias. You are giving me Dr.Esselstyn's
bias, that's all.

I am from middle east where we eat animal products and we don't see heart disease, diabetes, etc. in places where people eat mostly starch with little animal products. I can see that Dr.Esselstyn is speaking for Americans who are used to overindulging. But just because some Americans don't know how to eat properly doesn't mean everyone else has to abide by their strict dietary suggestions.

Anyway, enough said.

you can eat how every you want. The reason I posted what Esselstyn said is that it explains why it is so hard to eat just a little bit of meat, dairy, oil , sugar or other junk. Better to not eat any. you can stop posting if you want but maybe others have more to say...?

I'm not trying to convert anyone. You clearly have your mind made up already. I was just pointing out that you were distorting what Campbell actually says in The China Study. You originally said that The China Study says that 10% animal products in the diet is OK. When I pointed out that this wasn't correct (using quotes from the book that directly contradicted what you said) you changed your argument, and now you are claiming that Campbell is biased and that the science doesn't support his position. You can eat whatever you like, you don't need to justify it to me or to anyone else. But you're not really doing a good job of constructing a logical argument.

It's been a while since I've read The China Study, but what I recall about this issue is that since none of the communities in China that he studied were totally vegan, he was unable to conclude anything about going lower in animal foods than the ones that were at the bottom. So we don't know for sure about whether it is healthier to be totally vegan, or eat a very small portion of animals foods, or whether it doesn't matter. He did say that since there was a positive correlation between the % of the diet that was animal based and the various diseases of affluence, he suspects that eliminating virtually all animal products is best for health. But he couldn't conclude this statistically, since it would be extrapolating outside the range of data that he had.

He didn't say that it was okay to eat a small amount of animals, and he didn't say that it definitely isn't okay either. He recommends that we try not to eat any, but he can't back this up with epidemiological evidence yet.

For myself, I can feel the toxic effects of even small amounts of animal foods in my diet. I get these detox episodes that feel really awful, and they happen consistently a day or two after eating animal foods (as well as other foods that my body doesn't like). It's not fun to feel as awful as I feel when they're happening, but in a way it's good since my body is sending such a strong message as to what is not healthy for me. So for me, pure vegan is best, which is fine with me since I feel better spiritually and ethically about being vegan too.

I'm confused. Why would you come on here and ask people to "convince you" when your mind is already made up? You claim to be from a place where people eat small quantities of animal products and are doing great. So why are you searching for something else? Why are you trying to find the ultimate diet when you claim you are surrounded by people that are eating plants and animals and doing just fine? Why don't you follow in their footsteps? Are you just here to stir the pot? Or maybe their way of eating isn't working for you?

yeah why would you come on here and write such illogical stuff ? Have you signed off and gone out on the desert to eat a camel burger? ha ha

Google Middle East and heart disease. Seems as if they are having their fair share of health problems, as well.

yeah I thought that was a bogus claim he made about no heart disease in the middle east!

Terri's quote from Colin Campbell sums it up when he (Campbell) says:

"My advice is to try to eliminate all animal-based products from your diet, but not obsess over it. If a tasty vegetable soup has a chicken stock base, or if a hearty loaf of whole wheat bread includes a tiny amount of egg, don't worry about it. These quantities of animal-based foods makes applying this diet much easier – especially when eating out or buying already-prepared foods."

If someone wants to eat a very small amount of animal products, there isn't really good evidence that this very small amount will be harmful so hopeful_guy, DON'T OBSESS OVER IT...just do what works for you.

Ferguse, it should be obvious to you that minimizing your consumption of meat, milk and cheese should be in your best interest.

Except for the mere fact that studies clearly indicate that we need Vitamin C in our diet. No such study (to my knowledge) exists for meat consumption.