Discussion Board

This still makes no sense. Suggesting that someone come to a dairy free board to advocate dairy ?

What is the point of this board if it does not try to convince others that strongly believe in dairy?

I have emailed f1jim, explaining the situation, and I won't post again.

This is the last time I will get involved in someone elses argument.

I am vegan. No dairy (although I slip up now and then)

Perhaps reading what he posted again might help. He is NOT advocating for dairy at all but rather looking for help in convincing diary advocates that they are misguided.

Thank you Geoffrey. But I will not post any more until the person who has opened a new account here posts.

I got an email from her after I wrote "Just join, I will explain."

She replied "I did but where do I ask my question?"

I replied. "I would suggest post in the Lounge first. I will help... first check this... viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3875
Now you can post here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27604

So, let her do her post... if she still chooses to do so.

Enough for me

Steve we can put emotion aside in a debate but we shouldn't dismiss straightforward logical arguments. If people don't have a logical argument to refute our logical argument then there can't be a debate.
Milk from an animal of another species is not meant for us the same way as human milk is not meant for other species. This is logic, not ethics.
Still I have to say that if one has ethical arguments against the consumption of milk (like I have) one should use those arguments.
One can't use ethical and radical health arguments in the same debate or with the same people. I wouldn't trust an ethical vegan telling me that raw milk is bad for the health.
On a logical basis I don't try to know if raw milk is good or bad for our health, because if I find out it's good, my logical argument for us not drinking it hasn't lost any power.
Ultimately on an ethical basis I can't even consider using health arguments on a debate about this issue without feeling deceitful.
For me it would be like discussing the benefits of dissecting and experimenting new drugs on non volunteer humans. It doesn't matter if there are benefits or not, even though we all know there would be.
With so strong logical and ethical arguments for not drinking raw milk, how come it matters if it is good or bad for our health? The health argument should be that we don't depend on it, not that it's bad for us, because people will always find some way to make it not bad for them or say they'll just consume less, and we can't argue with that. If we do people will obviously see us as hypochondriac or having a hidden agenda.
Actually the only way I could put myself in a position to loose a debate on raw milk or any other animal product is if I entered the health debate further than showing that we don't depend on them for optimal health.
So I'll leave it to people like Dr McDougall that deal with this issue on a purely scientific base.
If I'm going to use science I'll use it to show that a cow or goat is not less sentient and emotional than us and for that reason alone taking milk from a cow or goat is like taking milk from a woman. Case closed.
Now if we really believe we don't depend on milk I don't see anything wrong with people thrashing it using scientific evidence about health and I do that as a last resource as this is an emergency for the animals, but I can only do it convincingly with people that don't know my ethical stance on this.
Check from 1:06:00 of Gary Yourofsky talk where he is very clear about the issue of milk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LM ... re=mh_lolz

"Cow's milk is created to turn a 45-pound calf into a 300-pound cow in a year. If drinking cow's milk were natural, it would be just as natural to drink dog's milk, yet most people are disturbed by the thought of this. It is amazing how customs and advertising can change the way we think about such issues. Milk is designed solely for the purpose of feeding the young. Human milk is designed for human babies, cow's milk for calves. Once babies have been weaned, there is no further dietary need for this food..."



that was from:
http://www.saludpr.com/what_no_milk.htm

It matters not at all if the milk of a cow is raw or pasteurized. It's not fit for human consumption.

For the last 10 years what dairy I did consume (save for certain cheeses) came from our own cow or goats. If I was into consuming dairy again it would be a difficult transition not to drink it in its raw state. Came off of dairy when I began this WOE... but I can see a time when I could possibly consume very limited amounts of dairy products again once I reach my goal weight. Just wont be very often.

I like these last series of comments that focus on the merits of the topic and less on the intentions of the poster. I think it's right to assume the original posters intent was honest. I do understand some peoples reticence to role play the other side, given most members preference to avoid dairy. I think it doesn't help to shoot the messenger if you don't like the question. If the thread is disturbing to you let it die of it's own lack of attention.
f1jim

Those are the reasons I began raising my own dairy cow and goats... I think the "ethical" arguments are diminished somewhat from that perspective... though the health arguments remain. Our cow is currently being titrated off of milking and looking forward to living the life of luxury in a well irrigated pasture... BTW... we kept all calves and let them nurse naturally as we only used a small portion of her milk for cheese, butter, and cream.

Knut for how long did you have milk after the birth of a calf?
How many years did you go on keeping all the calves that were born and with how many cows/calves did you end up with?

We milked her for 10 months, gave her 6 months off, then bred her with a bull and began anew. In 10 years we had 6 calves and raised them on grass for 2-3 years. The cow is now 12 years old and doing great.

I had the vegan mindset long before becoming vegan. I used to hunt years ago but gave that and my guns up for ethical reasons. Protested for years against factory farming and raised our own grass fed beef, free range hogs, chickens, bison, etc. etc. The evolution was long in the making. Now the pigs and the goats have become landscape engineers and the bison and few head of cattle are pleasant to look at. I will still cull 2-3 head a year of the older ones for dog food (dogs being dogs don't understand the whole vegan thing) but no more eating of meat for this "ethical" rancher.

So I guess If a baby Has short of mother milk It is never ok to feed it the horrible stuff the sell in farmacy or shop .But the milk from your own goat or cow Will do for a bit.I saw my litle girl get a rush from the fat U H T milk.The childcare doctor was angry whit me .He tolt me that I had to give skimmed milk .But that is even worse.My friend doctor who knows about natural things told me that it is not the fat but the proteins that if they are heated they are very heavy for the kidneys and give the rush .Short after I stopped giving the crap milk the problem was gone.The first food after mother milk was raw fruit and vegetables Further on in live she had raw fresh cow-milk and goat-milk.
even though we have a vegetarian diet she always has been small but very healthy and happy.
For me I am happy I had and still have the fresh raw sheep and goats milk and a raw egg yolk ones a week .I do seem to burn my nutrition quickly so a am happy whit the extra ... I do feel the differences between raw and heated milk products...so I like to know if the casein is different if you heat it or not. If you want to wash the fat of raw animal products from your hand ,It is very easy whit just water the are heated it is impossible. This is to much to read so I stop and hope for response.

That is very interesting thank you
But still I think this kids where using heated dairy products I am going to test it on myself Lets see in 4 to 8 day's

I like to know if the milk was raw fresh and not cooled ? thank you.