Discussion Board

Hello!

I’ve been working at this way of eating for a few months now --- since sometime in September --- and just can’t seem to get it right. I’m hoping to learn from those who have managed to “work the program” successfully.

Basically, I’m wondering if any of the Stars had to watch the amount of food they were eating in order to lose the extra weight.

I have a BMI of 29 (it’s borderline --- it's 30 once I've had my oatmeal and a cup of tea), so I definitely have some weight to lose. I'm post-menopausal female, 5'9", 204-205 lbs.

I seem to need a lot of starch to feel sated. Well, maybe it's not "a lot" but apparently it's too much, because I'm not losing weight.

I’ve read the material online, read “The McDougall Program for Maximum Weight Loss” book, watched several of Dr. McDougall’s videos on YouTube, including “The Starch Solution” a couple of times, as well as Mike T’s video from the Vegetarian Society of Hawaii. Again and again, I read and hear “eat until you’re satisfied”.

I have watched Jeff Novick’s video about caloric density. Veggies first, then starches. I've read about "volume eaters" and "toxic hunger".

I eat green veggies (bok choy, guy lan, cabbage, spinach, etc.) and whole-grain brown rice and/or potatoes. Sometimes I have non-green veggies (sweet potatoes, carrots, parsnips, turnips). No oil, no added fat. But I don’t lose weight. So then I’ll cut back on the rice and potatoes, and my weight will begin to creep down a bit (a quarter or half pound at a time), but then I’m not sated --- I end up wandering the kitchen restlessly and, on occasion, eating “off program” foods (not terrible things like Twinkies and hot dogs, but rather whole wheat pitas, too much hummus and Lara bars). Which is exactly what Dr. McDougall warns will happen if you don't eat enough starch.

It’s like a balancing act that I simply can’t get right. Greens = weight loss ~ Starch = satisfied

I posted a while back in the lounge and wasn’t very happy about the responses that suggested I measure my food and count calories. But I cut back on my legumes and cut out any “extras” since then (I was having an ounce of walnuts a week on my oatmeal).

I’m coming to terms with the fact that maybe those responses were right, that calorie counting and measuring food is my only avenue to weight loss. It just feels so unfair to read and hear about people piling their plates high and even competing with Dr. McD for eating so much and still losing weight, while I don’t get that luxury. It feels like a promise that’s been broken.

I carry my fat in my belly. I was told that my A1c indicated insulin resistance. I also take medication for hypertension. I have eschewed meat, dairy and fat since September, but the health problems are still issues. I really need to drop some weight.

Anyway, that’s a long introduction to a short question: Have any of the Stars had to limit their food intake and just live with some hunger on a daily basis in order to drop the excess weight? Have any of the Stars found that the program didn’t work for them until they made some non-McDougall changes (like measuring out food)? Did anyone have trouble finding the balance between low-calorie-dense veggies and satisfying starches?

If so, how did you get around it? I'd appreciate hearing about your experiences.

Have you read this thread?

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=26076

It covers a lot of your questions.

How long have you been following the McDougall plan strictly?
Absolutely true! I'd like to know how many weeks you have followed the plan and how much weight, if any, you have lost over that time.

Also, confirm that you have not cheated in the form of added fat (including nuts).

Hi ETeSelle. I really appreciate your responding to my question. I had noticed there were quite a few people viewing the thread, but none had posted, so I assumed that none of the Stars had to measure their food or count calories.

Yes, I *did* read the thread that you linked. I wondered if the same info applied since I am in a different position than that person --- I am not talking about the pounds that remain after losing more than 80 pounds. But I did pick up some tips from the posts there, such as waiting after eating and chewing thoroughly.

I started McDougalling in September and dropped somewhere around eight pounds the first two weeks. Nice, but nothing miraculous, since those were the pounds I had added by following a low-carb plan. I’ve previously done the same by eating lettuce and apples for a week.

Since then, nada.

I was strict for many weeks, other than an ounce of walnuts each week (measured). I have now cut that out, though it doesn’t seem to have made any difference.

But I haven’t been consuming oil. No fat, no dairy, no meat.

The past few days, though, I’ve started eating whole wheat pitas and hummus, because I’m getting frustrated and hungry. That’s the reason I decided to post again, in hopes of figuring this out.

I previously posted a sample of what I was eating:

B: steel cut oats, 1 tbs Turbinado sugar
S: steamed spinach, tomato-basil rice with cabbage
L: tomato-basil rice with cabbage
S: tomato-basil rice with cabbage, banana
D: tomato-basil rice with cabbage, grapes
S: baked sweet potato

B: steel cut oats, 1 tbs Turbinado sugar
S: steamed spinach, baked sweet potato
L: oven-“fried” potato wedges (potatoes, mustard, spices), banana
S: steamed greens, grapes
D: stir-fried greens (no oil), rice
S: Wasa crackers and hummus

B: steel cut oats, 1 tbs Turbinado sugar
S: boiled new potatoes with ketchup
L: baked sweet potato with steamed spinach
S: steamed greens, leftover potatoes, grapes
D: tomato-basil rice with cabbage
S: baked sweet potato, banana

So, going by the questions you ask, I guess you DIDN’T have to measure food or cut calories to lose weight? I guess that answers my question. Oh well. I appreciate your response.

Hi portwest, I'm post-menopausal as well, along with hypothyroid, for good measure, LOL .

I'm wondering if you do any exercise, as you didn't mention that. I find that the hour a day that I do is crucial to maintaining my weight. You might think that exercise would just make you more hungry, but in my experience that's not how it works.

I don't count calories or measure everything on a regular basis. But I can't afford to eat everything my head would like to eat, even if it's MWL stuff. I try to find that sweet spot where I'm getting just enough to satisfy hunger, and then quit. I don't always hit it, but I'm getting better. Also I find I need to avoid processed grains (bread, crackers, etc) and most other high calorie-density foods.

It's so unfair that at our age metabolism is far from what it used to be... but that's life.

Actually I replied twice to your previous post asking what to eat, but I will try again here. If you are not getting the results you want you need to increase the amount of green and yellow vegetables and decrease the amount of starch. Dr. McDougall recommends a 50:50 mix for the 'hasty'. That and a reasonable amount of exercise will get your weight to drop. As to whether or not I have counted calories - I have strictly for experimental purposes. I used the CRONoMeter that JeffN recommends to log my food for a few days to get an average calorie and nutrition count. Generally speaking, when dieting you want to eat less than 10 times your current weight in calories to lose weight and more than 10 times your goal weight to get enough nutrition. So if you weigh 170 pounds and want to weigh 130 you would need to eat between 1700 and 1300 calories a day. That's the simple science. In reality, on a high fiber, unprocessed starch-based diet you can probably get away with more, because of the high fiber content of the food. I know from my own experiments that I will maintain my weight on 1500 calories a day, so if I want to lose weight I need to eat less than this amount. ETeSelle has an advantage over me in that she works outdoors - I work in a lab and have to make an effort to get exercise. So I'm prudent with my food. Using the CRON0Meter helped me to understand my own metabolic needs. It's not a requirement it's just a tool. Using Dr. McDougall's and JeffN's guidelines on nutritional density I have designed a diet suitable to my lifestyle that includes plenty of fresh and cooked vegetables, limited fruit and a serving of starch at every meal. I eat three times a day and don't eat in between meals. I don't eat processed grains or pasta and stick to the MWL plan as much as possible. I cook my food in batches and divide up the contents into individual servings. That way I won't eat a whole pot of soup or oatmeal at a time - I can and have. Am I satisfied with the amount of food I eat? - not really. The part of my brain that says you have eaten enough and are now full doesn't work. Given unlimited food I will eat myself sick - literally. Fortunately, by eating low calorie density foods (salads, followed by soup, followed by starches) I can eat A LOT of food and that helps. As you can tell, I am not dogmatic. I combined Dr. McDougall's MWL, JeffN's calorie density, Dr. Fuhrman nutrient density and a little of Dr. Neal Barnard glycemic index (russett potatoes are not my friend) to design a whole foods, vegan, gluten-free unprocessed diet that keeps me trim, healthy, and medication-free. And that last part is more important than anything else. As I mentioned before, if you want to see what I eat on a day-to-day basis check out my food log under page 1 of the Holiday Excursion Food Log topic.
Kate

For me that's exactly what it means. If I take a 1/2 cup of rolled oats, cook it up in a couple cups of water, add a TBS of ground flaxseed and a mashed banana, I get a large bowl of oatmeal. That's all the oatmeal I need - a big bowl of oatmeal and tea is breakfast. Lunch is a big bowl of steamed vegetables, beans, greens and a starch. Sometimes its 1/2 cup of brown rice, sometimes its a handful of frozen sweet potatoes, sometimes a cup of shredded hashbrowns. It's a lot of food. You can see a picture of today's lunch on the Holiday Excursion discussion topic. For dinner, I have a large salad with ff dressing, a full bowl of soup and another starch. Either a whole sweet potato, half a large winter squash or 3 small baby yukon gold or red potatoes. It's enough food so that I'm only a tiny bit hungry when finished. If I eat till I'm satisfied - well I can't eat till I'm satisfied. I can eat enough for the 300 pound woman I used to be and still want more. Something inside me is broken. I think that's true of many former morbidly obese. I eat enough so that I can go 6-8 hours between meals to allow for digestion and detoxification and be truly hungry for my next meal. It's really not a big teeth clenching, nail biting thing for me. I don't carry a calculator around with me (OK, that's a lie. I'm a chemist - I do carry a calculator around with me ) But you get what I mean. I just eat a reasonable amount of whole food at mealtime and then get on with my day. What constitutes a reasonable amount for me may be different for someone else. You have to be willing to experiment a little to feel out your own needs.
Kate

portwest -

In answer to your question, no I do not count or measure anything.

I do have a few suggestions for you though. I have read through your previous posts and can see that your thyroid has tested fine and that you are on some medications.

In some instances medications can cause you to gain or not lose weight. You can check your medications. This doesn't mean that you can't lose weight on this program. It just means that it may be a little more difficult for you than someone else.

The key is to let the foods help you correct the underlining problems so that you may be able to get to a point where, with your doctor's help, you might be able to discontinue the meds.

Also, I see that you have had some problems and exercise is difficult. Maybe if you speak with Lani, she can help you develop a routine that works for you. Personal trainers are great at working around issues.

What I'm trying to say is that you might have to concentrated more on getting healthy and then let the weight follow.

When looking at your foods, I think generally you are doing good. There are two things that I noticed. One is the sugar. I would substitute fresh fruit for the sugar. I eat a banana in my oatmeal in the morning. I've gotten used to it and now I really enjoy it.

The other thing is that I think you are good on the greens but I don't see a lot of other veggies. Veggies like broccoli, asparagus, yellow squash, zuchinni, green beans, etc., are great fillers. I eat a ton of them. Greens make me happy that I am eating nutritional powerhouses but they don't fill me up. The other veggies give me that full tummy feeling. Then I count on the starches to give me the long term satiation.

I saw that you don't care for salads. Do you like chopped raw veggies like tomato, cucumbers, radishes, celery, carrots, etc.? I find these also give my that full tummy felling.

How about soups? Soups are also very filling to me.

Jeff has said that the best food for short and long term satiation is potatoes. I have also read that legumes are good too. My experience leads me to believe this is true. Legumes stay with me a long time.

I can read the frustration in your posts. This program has worked very well for me so I urge you to stick with it and give it a chance.

From what I've read your seem dedicated to giving this an honest try. I would be glad to help if I can.

If you want to keep a journal, I would be glad to look through it and give you feedback. If you would like to do something more private and PM me, I would be happy to do that too.

Donna

Thank you, KareninTN, and yes, I am quite sedentary. My job has me sitting at a computer 10 or 11 hours a day and I’ve had an injury that’s kept me from moving much --- even walking --- for a few months now.

Katydid, thanks --- I see your posting in the other thread --- you said, “I plugged the food that you mention above into my diet software and it came to over 2000 calories”, but I never gave any measurements, so I can’t imagine how you’d get that number.

Regardless, then, it sounds like you are measuring food and, in some form, counting calories. Wow. I really appreciate your posting about this, and I will take a look at the “Excursion” thread. I want to say, though, as I’ve said before, this is disappointing. This is most definitely NOT what Dr. McD says in his books and videos. Again and again, he tells people they can eat all they want and lose weight. He even addresses those who can’t exercise and says that it is the food that makes the difference. I believed this so wholeheartedly that I am having trouble coming to terms with the fact that it is not true.

But hey, it is what it is, right?

Dlb, thank you for “hearing” my frustration. I am just so, so disappointed. As for the sugar, well, I was going by what Dr. McD specifically wrote on p. 65 of “The McDougall Program for Maximum Weight Loss”, but apparently those words don’t apply to me either.

(Funny, I was just re-reading about the teaspoon of sugar on oatmeal again last night. I’ve been re-reading the book again and again, trying to figure out what I’m doing wrong)

I do appreciate the advice and need to just get over myself and realize that “too good to be true” is just that --- sort of like the info-mercials for miracle products on TV. I need to try not to get all caught up in it when I read about and see videos of people who talk about stuffing themselves with food while dropping pounds of fat.

Thanks, everyone.

A teaspoon or a tablespoon - which are you using?

I am using a kitchen teaspoon, not a measuring spoon. I just measured how much it holds: a bit more than a measuring teaspoon, but much less than a measuring tablespoon.

Perhaps you should email Dr. McDougall w/ your concerns: drmcdougall@drmcdougall.com .

Hi, portwest, I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to respond until today. The others have given you very good, thoughtful responses. I thought I would add my experience as well. To the question above, did I have to watch the amount of food? Well, yes, I did have to watch my intake. As Katy said earlier, many of us with weight problems have really no concept of when to stop! It really doesn't have as much to do with hunger, as something a bit deeper--boredom, as Donna (I believe) mentioned, is a big drive for many of us to eat. However, although I had (still have) to watch the amount of food I ate, I didn't measure or count calories.

We all measure, of course, to some extent, simply by the fact that we have food in containers. If we didn't measure our food into our bowls, they would overflow. I know my bowls hold about 2 cups, so if I eat two bowls, I know I've had 4 cups. If I then feel full, I have the knowledge that "last time, I had 4 cups." If I lose weight after a day of "4 cup" meals, I cannot help but note that. If I don't lose, or gain, after a day of "6 cup" meals, I cannot help but note that, either, and if I want to lose more weight, I say to myself, "maybe I should have only had 4-cup meals." We can't stop our brains from measuring, and calculating the effects.



It appears that you've been following the plan for about 10 weeks, and you want to lose about 50 pounds. You also mention your sedentary job--I also work a desk job 10 or more hours a day, and commute another 2 (minimum). I wanted to check my experience to see if it could inform your decisions. So, I went back to my chart to see how I did in my first 10 weeks. You lost 8 pounds in 2 weeks. Your 8 pounds is still a decent loss, especially for a post-menopausal woman. In my first 2 weeks, I lost just under 4 pounds. In the 10 weeks, I lost about 16 pounds. I gained twice in those 10 weeks, so it was not a smooth ride, by any means.

Then I looked at how my losses went in the 10 weeks after the point where I had 50 pounds to lose. In the first two weeks, I lost just less than 3/4 of a pound, and in the 10 weeks, I lost 13 pounds, and gained twice in those weeks, too.

I'm telling you this because you seem incredibly discouraged, for someone who has had moderate success! I have lost 95 pounds, but it was not in the 15-pound-a-month mode. That doesn't make the loss any less valuable or real.


I have highlighted two phrases above to talk about being human and how we interpret language. The concept of "limiting food intake" must seem like the opposite (to you) of "eating until satisfied." But I don't think of it that way. I think of "limiting food intake" as "not eating until I'm stuffed and uncomfortable," which I am very capable of doing (eating till I bust, I mean!).

The other highlighted phrase is "just live with some hunger," as if that was the obvious and inevitable result of "limiting food intake." You have mentioned wandering about the kitchen hungry, and the choices that you made, which are very familiar to me--the pitas, the Lara bars--what we call around this household "a little something." That sounds more, to me, like the boredom hunger I and others have mentioned. The title, and the general gist, of your other thread, "Please Tell Me What to Eat?" seems to indicate that your feeling of hunger is really a feeling that is asking you, "so what else can I have?" Believe me, I know that feeling oh so well!!! And THAT is the "hunger" that you may have to live with. You may need to learn to tell yourself, "I have had enough good, nutritious food for today, and what I am feeling is not hunger, but another thing altogether. I will not starve if I wait until breakfast."

I guess what I'm saying is that it's possible that "not being satisfied" can be a whole different thing from being hungry because you haven't had enough to eat. I hear so much anguish in your posts, a feeling of betrayal and disappointment that you saw promises that weren't fulfilled. Perhaps if you take a new look at your sensations of hunger, and at your perceptions of how long you have been at this (I'm wondering if you had expected to have lost most of your excess weight in these 10 weeks? I have to say, not everyone can lose 12 - 15 pounds a month!), you can see this way of eating from a different perspective.

You have gotten a lot of good suggestions--I want to second Donna's suggestion about more variety in your vegetables. I didn't see corn, peas, green beans, cucumbers, zucchini, broccoli, cauliflower, carrots, and a host of other vegetables. The other suggestion I want to second, which is straight from Dr M, it to eat the fresh foods first. I do this every day at work now--when it gets close to lunch time, I get out my baby carrots, cherry tomatoes and other fresh munchies and I have those before I start in on my warm soup. Sometimes, the fresh makes me so full, I have to wait a couple of hours before I can eat the soup, but sometimes I eat them one after the other.

Don't give up! You haven't posted for a few days--keep us posted and tell us how you are doing. It's early days yet! Think how healthy your insides are getting!

I took your tbs to be a tablespoon. Sorry about the confusion.

Maybe this will help you.

I take this from Jeff’s section:

These are averages

Fresh Veggies are around 100 cal/lb
Fresh Fruits around 250-300 cal/lb
Starchy Veggies/Intact Whole Grains around 450-500 cal/lb
Legumes around 550-600 cal/lb
Processed Grains (even if their Whole grain) around 1200-1500 cal/lb
Nuts/Seeds around 2800 cal/lb
Oils around 4000 cal/lb

What they found is if the calorie density of the food is below 400 calories per pound, not matter how much they eat, they all lost weight.

Between 600-800 calories per pound, with some moderate exercise, they all lost weight.

Between 800-1200 calories per pound, people gained weight, except for those with very high activity levels

Over 1200 calories per pound, everyone gained weight.


And combine it with this from Dr. McDougall:

Typically “popular diets” recommend that you eat large amounts of green and yellow vegetables, which are very low in calories, thus filling your stomach with low energy bulk (they are high in nutrients, however).  I suggest about one-third of the meal should be from these low-calorie vegetables for accelerating weight loss.  If you are desperate, then you may push that amount to one-half of your plate (measured roughly by your eye). 


If I could not exercise right now, I see, according to Jeff’s information, I would need to be around 400 calories per pound. No need for me to calculate anything. I would just eat starches, veggies, and fruits (keeping in mind that he also recommends limiting fruits) by using Dr. McDougall’s method of 1/3 to 1/2 of my plate as veggies.

Being satisfied and being stuffed are two different things. It took me a while to understand satisfied. Play with your food (it's allowed ) to see what fits you.

I’ve lost the weight doing this and I’ve maintained my weight doing this.

Hope it helps.

Donna

First off, thank you, Frozenveg and Donna.

I am discouraged, Frozenveg, because that initial loss is not any more significant than it was when I had the same results on low-carb or Weight Watchers or any other plan I’ve tried in the past. I have come to expect that initial drop in weight. But after my standard “new diet weight loss”, I haven’t lost anything. The numbers have stagnated all these weeks.

Oh yes, I can certainly do that too. But I haven’t been eating until I’m in pain. I’ve simply been eating until I feel satisfied.

Like I said earlier, I keep re-reading the MWL book and have figured out something: it could be that I’m not eating enough raw veggies and salads (probably because I don’t really like them). I've been focussing on eating cooked veggies and, of course, starches.

Yes, I believe it is the inevitable result. Either you “eat all you want” and “eat until you’re satisfied” or you limit your food and live with some hunger. I can’t help but think of the supermodels who live their entire lives hungry. Is that what some women need to do to keep a healthy weight?!?

Ah, I can see that it sounds that way. That’s not exactly it. It’s more like my food hasn’t satisfied me – do I eat more? Do I eat something else? What can I eat to make that feeling of hunger go away?
We’re supposed to eat, then wait half an hour and if we’re still not satisfied, eat more, right? Well, what is the “more”? More starch? (That’s certainly not working for weight loss.) More veg? (Not satisfying.) This is the point where I obviously don’t know what to eat. I don’t know how to work the plan. I open cupboard doors and shake my head. So I eat a Lara bar or a pita. I guess it’s just another form of starch I’m after. (Which is exactly what Dr. McD says --- it’s the starch that satisfies.) But my hunger for starch is obviously greater than my caloric needs.

Yes, I think you’re right --- not being satisfied is clearly different from being hungry because I haven’t had enough to eat. And yes, I do feel betrayed and disappointed, because the book and the video lectures use the word “satisfied”. Promises that weren’t fulfilled.

I hadn't expected to lose all my weight by now, but I did expect to see the scale moving downwards a bit and it hasn't been. I realize that it won't be a steady progression downwards, but the numbers should have dropped some by now.


I am working on that. I *do* eat other veggies (they just weren’t evident on those days that I sampled). I don’t really care for salads, but, like the hungry supermodels, I guess I’ll just have to get used to them (only I won’t have the supermodel lifestyle at the end!)


Thank you, Donna. I am aware of calorie density, but the reminder is certainly good.

I note that the starch and legumes are above that 400-calorie-per-pound line. Guess my diet doesn’t get to be so much starch-based as salad-based, eh? (Again, I feel like this is a broken promise)



Well, I had thought I was eating at least 1/3 veggies. In my above sample, the tomato-rice-cabbage mixture had a LOT of cabbage in it. Obviously, I was wrong.

Again, thanks to all of you. I will try to eat more veggies, cut back on the starches and get used to feeling hungry.

I was just reading some messages on the forum and came across references to “Mary’s Mini”. I'd read about "Mary's Mini" before, but hadn't really given it serious thought.

I’m trying to reconcile the concept of eating potatoes and green/yellow veggies all day long with the idea of my trying to restrict starch and legumes, as I’ve been learning that I need to do.

I don’t get it.

Is “Mary’s Mini” like an all-you-can-eat buffet of limited foods (potatoes and green/yellow veggies)? Why and how would that induce weight loss?