Discussion Board

Is it celiac disease or could it be lack of HCL?

I have the book, "Green For Life" by Victoria Boutenko. If you can get a copy from your library, read chapter ten, "The Significance of Stomach Acid".
She says that celiac disease is a condition that is associated with low stomach acidity (HCL). She lists several conditions on pages 66-67.
HCL is hydrochloric acid.

I am unable to do the elimination diet, because I have been so bloated since Sunday. We didn't go out to eat for my birthday on the 15th. However, we went to the church pot luck Sunday evening. I ate a small amount of spaghetti. Brought home a slice of chocolate cake and this little cookie bar. Which I ate on Monday. I wasn't going to eat the cake until I got over the bloat, but my dh got into it and ate at least half of it.

I guess the gluten in the spaghetti and cake really got to me . I have thrown up twice. Also, since I stopped using added fats/oils I am not having diarrhea. I was eating a lot of Vegenaise, and from what Dr. McDougall writes about fats/oils causing colitis/IBD and diarrhea. I reallized I wasn't following his program. But, now I'm constipated and can't get rid of the bloating.

Anyway, last night I decided to read chapter 10 and was surprised to read celiac disease as one of the conditions. It really makes sense, because cooking makes food softer and easier to digest, but raw plant foods need a strong HCL in order to digest. Thus, when I ate 100% raw for a year and 5 months I depleted my HCL reserve
By the way I bought HCL from the health store, just didn't take with the small amount of pot luck food or the cake & bar. Also, from my herbal book, Oregon Grape root is suppose to reestablish HCL, as is the green smoothies.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Thanks, Lois

I don't know that much about low stomach acid.

It's been my understanding that this might be more of an indicator of something than an actual condition standing all on its own.

I do believe celiac was one of the potential causes of low stomach acid, as there is often association of the two...there also might be association of low stomach acid with other autoimmune disorders...again, according to Dr. Kenneth Fine, most autoimmune disorders may in fact boil down to leaky gut, with gluten right up there with casein as being a prime suspect most of the time.

But, as I said, I really don't know /have not read a whole lot about it.

If you've eaten things like spaghetti and cake, I guess it's tough isolating the causes of your symptoms and knowing whether it could have been the gluten or whatever else. If I thought my stomach acid was inefficient for digestion, I would want to know why and correct the cause, if possible, rather than trying to add that...usually, adding enzymes, reducing stomach acid and other attempts at digestion are not addressing the real cause of the problem, and can sometimes backfire. I would be wondering WHY I was short of stomach acid instead of just adding it...I'm not saying I would NEVER add it...I mean, if some reliable test did show I was too low on stomach acid to digest my food, and if I also was finding out/or knew exactly why that was and was addressing that problem, I might then add some just to speed up my recovery process, with the idea of getting off of the stuff in a couple of weeks or so...MAYBE. I'm not so sure it's really very safe to do.

I wouldn't entirely give up on the gluten idea just yet...if I'm remembering right...you went raw and began to have problems...but you had had previous illness before raw, right? Then while raw you did eat gluten grains sprouted sometimes, right? Just to make sure I'm remembering it all right. So, now you're adding cooked vegan by following McDougall suggestions, and still having the same problems???? Or is anything any different????

When I dropped the gluten, I had to wait for a while after being totally gluten free before I really saw good results. Not saying it takes that long for everybody. But I know it is frustrating grappling for answers and knowing what's wrong and what to do about it. Did you get those tests from the healthfood store you were considering a little while back???? I know it would be nice if you could get some concrete answers to help get you pointed in the right direction...I sure understand how frustrating it can be.

Groundhog,

First off those tests won't be until February at the health store. Besides, I'd have to eat gluten since it's a blood test.

Second, I rarely got sick before going all raw. Once on a Morning Star Chik patty/sandwich, then the 10-day cleanse & juice fast. The 3rd time was eating dairy desserts at a tea party. I had been off dairy, so my body rejected it.

I believe I really do have celiac disease from eating the spaghetti and cake, as a test. Chocolate doesn't seem to bother me. And, the spaghetti had very little tomato sauce on it, and tomatoes don't seem to bother me.

I don't believe taking HCL is harmful. In Victoria's book the gastro doctor put the 27 participance on up to 5 HCL with a meal to test their stomach acid. Then, they drank the green smoothies and after a month was tested again. There was a 67% increase of stomach acid. Also, Victoria was told that people just take HCL with their meals to help digest their foods.
The HCL from the health store is probably not the same as the prescription and milder.

Yes, I think you're right about it being gluten, as I did eat sprouted grains on the raw diet. However, I think the raw diet got things stirred up so to speak. Cleaned out my digestive system alittle too much. Especially since I had had 5 weeks of radiation treatments.
I'm sure it will take time for me to see results too. I am not wanting to keep repeating these digestive symptoms, so no more gluten for me.

So, if I'm hearing you right, you're thinking gluten is bothering you for sure, and you don't want to have to keep on eating it to get the tests in February, right?

As to the HCL, how long do you think you'll be using the stuff? I mean, I'm wondering if the gut begins to heal after a time, wondering if it would automatically increase on its own??? Since I have read that many celiacs have low stomach acid...just thinking it seems to reason that after a time gluten free a person's stomach would kick in and start behaving in that way too. I hope so. My own thinking is that, ideally, we should not have to take any drugs, herbs, etc., to be well. I know that isn't possible in every single person's situation, but I think at least most people can cut down on whatever it is they need with time.

I even feel this way about probiotics. I found them helpful for me, but I don't think I should have to include this all the time. At this point I'm doing them on and off...sometimes they help, but it seems when I've had "enough" of them, they can even cause symptoms of their own. I've tried to "manufacture" my own by fermenting foods at home, but don't always have time to keep up with that...then I finally bought some fermented cabbage, red/beet product in a health food store. Again, though, sometimes if I've taken it for several days in a row, just like probiotic pills, it will cause symptoms similar to what I've been trying to get over. I don't think I should owe my health to probiotic pill companies or even fermenting factories...I hope my gut just sets up its own operation to grow and nuture the exact friendly gut microbe it needs...and ideally it does this on its own, if we avoid foods that are toxic to us. So, anyway, maybe if you start out taking this HCL and it helps, maybe at some point you would be able to cut back and even stop it all together.

I would at least give the gluten free thing six months before I really looked for a big change...I know that's not easy...and for some people it doesn't even take that long. But, now I'm getting close to a full year, and I'm STILL seeing lots of changes and improvements happening all the time...so, it seems the healing process hasn't stopped with me yet.

I highly agree, as I believe Dr. McDougall does concerning suppliments. That we don't need them. That diet/food is our medicine. I do want to get off the HCL and sometimes worry they might be causing me more harm. Yet, I'm afraid not to take them for now.

Frankly, I don't trust this mobile lab outfit for testing our blood for celiac. I remember how these labs would set up in grocery stores to test a persons cholesterol and then we'd only get one blood reading. Such as 225, not 225/95 or whatever.

I am still considering going with enterolab, but I still question them. Seems everyone, ever "normal" people can test possitive for gluten sensitiviy. And then, I wonder if this means the person has celiac or not?

Say, do you still have children at home you have to cook for? Forgive me but I forgot how old you are? I'm now 57. We had no children.

Lois

What it all really boils down to is the ultimate test for celiac or gluten sensitivity...many doctors say this: the person's response to a gluten free diet. If the person feels better gluten free, then there simply are NO tests that can give a better indicator of gluten sensitivity. For a while I considered challenging myself with a cracker or something...a couple of months ago...then I finally came to my senses and thought, "Why?" I mean, thanks to what notes I've kept (I got so sick of worrying about it I threw away my notes from Feb. until about August, so I no longer have those to compare), I can clearly see very slow, very gradual improvements from September until now. The tricky thing in my own situation is the gradual nature of improvement...and during the first 3 months, I saw little improvement, but lots of changes from my usual pattern of daily symptoms...still, not anything I could call well. Beginning in September, though, I started seeing gradual improvements I could really put my finger on. When I compare myself to how I felt this time last year (and it's really funny how much we actually FORGET, once we do start feeling better), there's a huge difference in lots of ways. This, to me, is a definitive diagnosis...and anything beyond would be a waste of money and time and couldn't tell me anything different than what I've already learned.

But, again as we've discussed so many times, the problem with this ultimate dietary self-diagnosis is that it takes a lot of patience, because not everyone feels better right away, and as I said above, the improvements can be so slow and gradual, and that with the tendency to forget how bad you used to feel when you find yourself doing better...plus the fact that most people would rather not have to give up gluten, and so there is a big tendency for denial--this makes the dietary gluten free trial not an easy thing to do.

To answer your question...no, it's just me and groundhubby at home that I cook for daily. Our daughter and her hubby live just a few miles away, and we frequently have each other over for meals, etc. They're gluten free now too, though...for several well-thoughtout reasons. So it makes it easy for all of us to share meals, desserts, etc.

Groundhog,

I AM IN DENIAL! I just don't want to believe I have a gluten problem. That is why I thought being tested possitive would get this notion out of my mind once and for all. Of course, I'm a tight wad too and hate to put out the money for tests.

That's great your daughter and son in law eat gluten free too and you can share meals together. Sure makes life so much easier.

It's been my experience from discussion with lots of folks about diet, that more people are horrified about the prospect of living without gluten than they are even about giving up meat or dairy. I think denial is a frequent accompaniment to gluten problems, and one reason why our entire society just doesn't want to consider it...you have to beg most doctors to test you for it. I've read stories on gluten message boards about doctors finding test results just a low positive, and telling the patients rather than living the horrible gluten free lifestyle, they should just go on enjoying their food and take Immodium every day. Man, that is dangerous advice...for one thing, the drug in Immodium can cause serious bowel damage if taken all the time, and for another thing, if gluten bothers you (whether you have intestinal symptoms or not...can even bother people in other ways, like diabetes, headaches, joint aches, anything...), you really are teasing fate for more serious diseases, irreversible damage or even early death on down the road.

Like alcoholism, there is a big denial issue. Also, like alcoholism, celiac is terminal and will eventually kill a person who continues ignoring it...and again like acoholism, the cure is right at our fingertips...don't consume what your body can't handle. It's very easy to cure...but very hard to get a grip on!

People want to be healthy, but sometimes they aren't willing to do what it takes to get there.

I remember reading somewhere where Dr.McDougall said he would be willing to eat a plate of cardboard if it took that to be healthy...I guess that's the kind of attitude it takes to really face up to what needs to be done .

Also...I always think of a line out of a Simon & Garfunkel song: "...Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." And I think that's very true.

This morning I laid in bed worrying about eating out this coming Tuesday when my husband has a day off. At the Thai restaurant I seem to get sick. Then, I thought about the Italian restaurant and how I could bring my own gluten free pasta for them to cook and serve with their marinara sauce. But, then I got worried about the salad dressing they make.
All of this no gluten eating is really getting to me. Yet I know in my heart that if I don't stop I will get sicker. And like you said, could even lead to an early death.

I guess since my digestive system is messed up right now that even things like MSG can make me ill with the same bloating and sickness I come down with? Even some foods and spices do it. Even drinking a raw carrot juice, then eating half hour later can make me sick.

I decided the only place I would be able to eat out would be at a Mexican place that serves whole beans. I could always eat a bowl of beans

No, I never thought that fish sauce contained gluten. The owner said they don't add wheat to any of the foods. He must not know about the sauces they use then.

Eating out used to be our favorite pastime on my husband's day off. Or at least for him. The other night he said, "we will just have to come up with another favorite pastime". So, I thought that was sweet of him.

Yesterday afternoon we made pizzas using the gluten-free Pantry french bread & pizza mix. It makes way too much pizza though for two people.

On Saturday I made brownies, using a gluten-free mix. "The Cravings Place". This company is out of Bend, OR. The mix only calls for water and oil, and can use applesauce instead of the oil. It's gluten free, wheat free, dairy free, egg free, and nut free. DELICIOUS!

Thanks for the website. Do you have the restaurant cards? I'm finding it is best not to eat out, period!

I stopped eating out for the first several months gluten free...I hear there are certain restaurants in some areas that "get it," but most probably don't. P.F. Changs' (did I get that right?), which we do have in our area, supposedly even have a vegan, gluten free menu to select from...I haven't been there so I don't really know.

I figure most people in restaurants have no idea what is in their foods...many of the sauces and flavorings and stuff come to them from a factory and they don't know what's in there...even people working in hospitals don't always know. I read an account on a message board a while back about this guy who had celiac and went into same-day surgery for something unrelated...they had CELIAC stamped all over his paperwork, had it written on his bracelett thing, etc., and when he was recovering the nurse brought him crackers and a coke. He assumed it was all gluten free, since CELIAC was stamped all over him, etc., and was groggy, but enjoying the crackers and coke. When the nurse came in to check on him, he asked her where they found such delicious gluten free crackers...she says, "Oh, they're just the things from the vending machines..." or something like that...so he starts to panic and says he can't have anything with wheat, and she picks up the package of crackers and says something like..." Well these are okay; there's no wheat flour, just enriched white flour!" So...that's just an example of how well-meaning, well-educated people do not understand about ingredients in foods...so many times you just can't get anywhere with them in asking.

I worry about ethnic restaurants too...we used to enjoy Indian restaurants, but I worry that I won't be able to get through to them about knowing exactly whether there is some flour, starch, etc. in anything that might contain gluten. So I just don't try.

I have found that eating out in large buffets works pretty good...or any steak house or restaurant that has a big salad bar. I don't want salads from a place without a salad bar, because they might have them pre-made, and then have to go pick out croutons or something and leave crumbs behind...on a salad bar, normally, the lettuce and veggies are cut somewhere different than the cooked foods, and the croutons are just emptied from a bag into their serving containers...and as you go through the buffet or salad bar, serving yourself, you can visually inspect, by location, how safe things are likely to be. Like, I don't choose anything from a container sitting adjacent to one that might have a sauce, croutons, even cheese pieces, that could have fallen into that particular container. I like visually being able to see exactly what I'm choosing and exactly how safely located it is from foods I need to or even choose to avoid. I carry my own salad dressing and only go to places with big salad bars. So far I've been okay doing this.

I've seen those cards too...and I'm sure they would be very helpful in a restaurant where the sauces are made right there on the spot, where the chefs have a good knowledge of English, etc. But most places around us, where teenagers are in charge, and nobody knows where any of the foods came from, or else where it's a smaller business run by the owners, but the understanding of English might get in the way of communicating something as tricky as gluten...I just avoid for now.

It's a personal decision that everybody needs to make with their own needs and knowing what they're likely to run into in their own areas in mind.