Discussion Board

Thanks f1jim and funcrunch for sharing your insights. I still need to make up my mind. I will do further research and consultations.

Here is something I found on-line:

" In Japan and much of Europe, the "normal" range starts at 500-550 (and many of these ranges have no upper limit, as B12 has no known toxicity level; once the liver has stored to capacity the rest will be excreted)...."
and this:

" in the USA B 12 values below approximately 170–250 pg/mL indicate a deficiency.."

so it can be confusing as to what is "low normal"......

Then I will clarify by saying my number was 250. By my personal physicians take as well as several articles I have read online that represents a value termed normal but in the low range of normal. It represented a drop from the number of 612 I had received last year. It did prompt me to be more vigilant with my B12 supplementation. It may not have represented a danger at that point but I was not going to take chances.
f1jim

We need to compare apples with apples.

In Australia, like Europe, the unit is pmol/L while in the US it seems to be pg/mL.

Hence my original question on how to convert my Australian 360 pmol/L to the American metrics (pg/mL).

After much deliberation and soul searching, I decided to continue my sublinguals until the tube is finished. Thereafter, I will evaluate after my next blood test result. The main driver for this decision was obvious upon reflection. It can only strengthen my nervous system which is pushed with my piano and kayaking training.

I just finished reading most of "Could It Be B12" by Pacholock and Suart.

McDougall's program fixes many problems by paying attention to the circulatory system and its' health regarding atherosclerosis. Analogously, B12 keeps your nerve system healthy. Just as athlerosclerosis can lead to many different and numerous problems, so can a lack of B12.

In the book, there are so many symptoms listed, I won't bother to list but a few

Neurological: weakness in arms, difficulty walking, dissizenss, abnormal reflexes, incontinence, impotence, depression, ...

Psychiatric: apathy, irritability, delusions, personality changes, ...

Hematological: anemia, leukopenia, etc.

Other Signs: fatigue, lack of energy, pallor, falls, tinnitus, loss of appetite, anorexia, constipation, diarrhea, sore tongue, ...

Another thing the book talks about is the unreliability of blood tests. You can get a B12 serum level that is in a good range, but still be low in B12. This has to do with the B12 serum levels getting raised by other things that are not B12. In other words, a B12 serum test is not a conclusive test for B12 adequacy.

It seems from reading the book that B12 is poorly understood by science. No wonder we are confused about it. My understanding now is to seriously and literally take the comment of many vegans--"Take that b12 tablet every day."

As a community, I would suggest that we become as voiciferous with "Where do you get your B12?" as the Americans are with the question "Where do you get your protein?"

I would like to say that I am currently dealing with B12 deficiency issues. I, like others, was careless and not consistent with the B12 supplementation AND I was depending upon annual blood tests to detect any B12 problems (see previous post for the fallacy of that thinking). Of course, as I got more serious about it I read a book about nutrition that caused me to realize that some cereals were fortified with B12. I immediately switched to these cereals feeling that I was being a "good McDougaller" by not overdosing on B12. Unfortunately, the 2007 article by McDougall cited earlier in this thread states that cereals are not a reliable source of B12. It took me about a year to have serious effects of B12 deficiency--as my reserves were probably quite low regarding my inconsistent supplementation up to that time. (An email to McDougall about my problems on his diet prompted him to mention his 2007 article and suggest B12 as a possible source which saved my from further problems! He is a generous guy.)

Now, I currently am working with doctors to determine what the fluid feeling in my calves is. Some gait problems, anxiety, appetite, mood, and focus immediately improved upon supplementation. It also may be part of my low weight problem.

Oregonmom, I'm very interested in how long, and what the exact treatment was for your deficiency. My doctors know less than I do about B12 right now and I would feel better knowing someone elses specific experience. Could it take up to a year of heavier supplementation to clear up some of my issues?

I'm glad you are finally supplementing with B12. You can get permanent neurological damage from being B12 depleted.

I live in SUNNY 300+ days per year Albuquerque and have met people here who are still Vitamin D deficient. I now take 2000 IUs of D daily and my blood tests now show perfect D levels....which means I had to be too low before I started supplementing months ago.

I had lived in Portland for 19+ months before moving to ABQ in Dec. 2009 so it's possible I got depleted there due to lack of sun on top of diet.

Atheria

That is great feedback. Somehow, it explains the emerging anxiety that I had experienced prior to taking B12 supplement. At the moment, I am still on B12 sublingual, whenever I remember.

The question is where we can get B12 from naturally and unprocessed. I recall reading that Nori (seaweed) is a good source of B12. Is it really ? Is it natural ? In my humble experience and observation, most of the Chinese cuisine ingredients are highly processed, flavoured, preserved.... anything but natural. I do not be believe their labelling.

In summary, is B12 supplement the only source or are there natural trust worthy sources and what are they?

B12 is made from bacteria and unless you are growing your own crops using organic fertilizers and pulling your food directly from the ground there is no good plant source. Take the supplement and move on.
f1jim

McDougall's newsletter (http://drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/nov/b12.htm) does state something about Nori seaweed having the vitamin, but he also says:

“However, there is still some uncertainty about nori as a reliable B12 source; therefore, I suggest if you do choose this seaweed that you should monitor your B12 levels by blood tests now, and if adequate, every 3 years.”

Notice, McDougall is not strongly recommending that anyone take Nori as a source of B12 at this time. And, please remember, McDougall is not God, but he does provide an educated opinion. Just because you may have benefited from his diet does not mean that he is correct in all matters—you are responsible for your own health choices. In addition to that, consider the current concerns of some people regarding the Japan nuclear accident and seaweed radioactivity—now you would be investigating B12 and radioactivity.

My current understanding of McDougall's approach is to treat the body as a complex system that we don't really understand well. This means that we don't unbalance the system by shoving large amounts of specific nutrients, such as vitamin A, D, etc. This philosophy is validated by studies showing that shoving large amounts of something into the body can cause cancer, or other problems. My own primary care physician believes this philosophy as well.

Also consider the fact that McDougall still has partial paralysis from his stroke at the age of 18. (http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/apr/why.htm). A man with that sort of problem may have difficulty thinking that an easily solvable problem such as B12 deficiency could be worse than the alternative of eating meat and eventually facing a heart attack or stroke. Dr. McDougall is doing a lot for the prevention of heart attacks, but don't forget that he is still a man and has opinions.

VeganHealth.org gives a nice comprehensive overview of this vitamin and the health of vegans. (http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/everyvegan). They explain a lot about B12 that I have not seen so well described elsewhere.

Videos about B12 from McDougall and a guy who talks about the different types available. (http://lycopene.newaini.com/2012/07/26/ ... tamin-b12/ )

Well, if you're not going to eat bugs, your offspring or your fecal matter, supplementation is great! ha ha Some sources will tell you that algae is a source of it, but that is not correct. It is a type of b12 that is not truly absorbed by the body.

I know this is a relatively old thread, but we were wondering if we could revive it.

My wife and I (new to the board and on Ess diet for 4 mo), have been looking at Vit D and B12 information this am. This lead us to the thread - I hope McFruit is doing well!

We have decided to start supplimenting with B12 (and most likely D). However, we are also concerned with the source of our suppliments due to we had a good friend die from Triptofan poisoning years ago taking Eltriptofan suppliments (produced in Japan). We are looking for suggestions on reliable, safe manufacturers of suppliments.

Thanks very much.

Mike and Susan

I am now into my second bottle of ' Methyl B12 Spray - A liposomal complex)' ( readiesorb.com). You spray under the tongue.

This Methylcobalmin B12 was recommended to me in this thread and it is recommended over the hydroxocobalmin type that is less absorption efficient.

In Australia, I buy them from a health shop and the cost of a bottle is $28.95

And I am still alive.

mcfruity--do you think your shingles came about as a result of a b12 deficiency?