Discussion Board

The question of better control, meaning fewer complications, has not been settled. These are Dr. McDougall's words in his piece on diabetes on this site. This surprised me. But I see his point. Diabetics most often die from heart attacks and strokes. I almost died from an MI and v fib and my blood sugar after twenty years controlled by diet and exercise and no meds did not prevent the MI and blocked arteries. My HbA1c at the time of the MI was 5.4 and my morning readings consistently average between 75 and 85. There are no other complications but sick arteries is a biggy. Can good control lower the chance of complications? Or not? Would an HbA1c under five eliminate complications? Or is there something in the nature of this metabolic disorder that, once you have it, can never be reversed, even with excellent numbers? Dr. Fuhrman says you are cured of diabetes if you lose weight and get your numbers down. I never thought you could ever be cured--just controlled. But maybe even this isn't exactly true.

Didi

I personally doubt diabetes is "cured". I think if a true diabetic achieved "normal" levels then went back to eating sugar like non-diabetics can, the disease would be back.

I have diabetes 2. I could have have died, but didn't from a heart attack in January. but my blood sugar levels were lower than ever before, A1c test was 5.5 instead of 7.5 a couple of years ago. I credit that to having cut out oils. I have never taken medicine for diabetes. if I do die of a heart attack that's okay and I hope it's quick! until then I believe I can control the diabetes. now the recommendation has shifted from "tight control" as that, with medication, sometimes proved fatal.

maybe the diabetes post about carbs was removed? I had an answer to it so here it is.

just for this post I did a test. after breakfast (of 50 carbs but I don't usually count) my one hour glucose test was 173. Two hour test was 113. that may be high for those without diabetes but is within the range for those of us with diabetes 2. My breakfast was oatmeal (1/3 cup dry of quick oats cooked with water), 1/4 cup frozen blueberries, 1/4 cup low-fat soy, stevia to sweeten. 1 slice of whole wheat bread (which had .5 grams oil) and 1/2 banana.

http://www.joslin.org/info/Goals-for-Bl ... ntrol.html
http://www.januvia.com/sitagliptin/janu ... c_id=JA80G

"For people without diabetes, according to experts, blood sugar levels should be:

Between 70 and 120 mg/ dL

For people with type 2 diabetes:

Fasting (not eating for a period of time): up to 130 mg/dL
After meals: less than 180 mg/dL"

Tonight before dinner husband was 102. An hour after McDougall caesar salad, and sweet potato red lentil curry on quinoa he was 167. What are you going to do? He had a very reasonable portion, so what the heck, I'm glad he had a healthy dinner, I'm not gong to stress about it. And I guarantee that he'll be back to the low hundred's before bed.

I'm sure it could have been lower with a steak and salad for dinner, but I'm trying to look at his long term health here.

nordgirl, your husband's readings seem good for a person who is diabetic. the American Diabetes Association says:

What does tight control mean?

Tight control means getting as close to a normal (nondiabetic) blood glucose level as you safely can. Ideally, this means levels between 70 and 130 mg/dl before meals, and less than 180 two hours after starting a meal, with a glycated hemoglobin (A1C) level less than 7 percent.

There do seem to be differing opinions on what "safe" blood sugar is. But your blocked arteries Didi, may have come from a different issue, also still a bit controversial. That whole LD cholesterol particle size thing may be partly linked but in large part not directly connected to blood sugar level. No answers from me, just questions and curiosity!

On the Lounge discussion group, I posted an article about endothelial progenitor cells which are made in the bone marrow. Apparently diabetics produce fewer of these cells than non diabetics so it is possible that the metabolic disorder will cause artery damage even with controlled blood sugars.

I do not know if this lower production is due to the diabetes itself or if well controlled diabetics can increase these cells. Someone wrote that Dr. Esselstyn discussed this in a talk she heard but this subject is not in his book nor on any of his videos that I have seen. I believe he is reported to have said that lots of leafy greens like kale and collards can increase the production of these cells. I have also never heard Fuhrman mention this but his diet is lots and lots of greens (and beans).

Didi

here's a quote from Esselstyn. scroll down towards the bottom.

http://www.vegparadise.com/24carrot83.html

"There is some fascinating research that I would like to complete regarding the capacity of the plant-based diet to rapidly restore the quantity of endothelial progenitor cells. There is also the challenge to establish what is truly good food or bad food, to show clearly food that is NOT injurious to endothelial cells. This would have the power to entirely reclassify all foods and would totally change all cafeterias in schools, businesses, culinary institutes, restaurants, and hotels as well as eating at home. People would know up front if the food they were eating would injure them."

I noticed that Dr. E said to aggressively lose weight, eliminate cereals, breads and pastas. I would be interested in reading his new book. This interview makes his own diet sound a lot like fuhrman's. I would also like to know if in the book he speculates about what food increases endothelial progenitor cells.

Didi

Didi, this is a little off topic for this thread, but I've been wondering: Have you had ANY shortness of breath or pain in the chest (even slight) when exercising BEFORE you had your heart attack? I don't know what type of exercise you used to do. When I look at your BS and cholesterol numbers they seemed so perfect - and mine haven't been - my BS has always been much higher than yours. That's why I'm asking.

I'm your age you know so it's always a concern. The only thing different is that there is no heart disease in my family or siblings. My brother had prostate cancer but had it removed about 5 years ago. He's an old 'boyscout' and hunter and eats a healthy but animal containing diet. He's very active and feeling great. No problems with him or my sister. (they both live in Europe). And none of us have ever had weight problems.

The week after Easter, four days before my heart attack I experienced back pain which one of my daughters, a nurse, thought was gall bladder. Even the ER doctor thought it was not heart. Before this I never experienced pain and walked for exercise and went to the gym once or twice a day and used the exercise bike, eliptical and lifted weights. No pain, dizziness, light headedness, sweating or fatigue. Although losing weight, I am not at my normal weight yet. No other complications from diabetes and a normal blood sugar. The last thing I expected was an MI.

Didi

Didi, that's amazing and scary at the same time. Not having any symptoms and then...boom... a heart attack. I wonder why so many people have angina and shortness of breath? I guess it must have something to do with the location of the blockage.

It is not unusual. I hear all the time that sometimes the only symptom you have of heart trouble is sudden death.

Didi

I think I also read that as we age plaque becomes less stable. Maybe there is nothing we can do about it no matter how healthfully we eat although some of Dr. Esselstyn's patients seem to have made it to their eighties without further artery problems.

Didi

This is kind of interesting: http://cardiovascres.oxfordjournals.org ... 2/334.full Atherosclerotic plaque rupture – pathologic basis of plaque stability and instability