Discussion Board

Hi--I promised some people here I'd report back about my bone density follow-up. Three and a half years ago, at the advice of my doctor (before I knew of Dr. McDougall's views on bone scans), I agreed to get a bone scan. I was 49 years old at the time and had only been McDougalling a few months. That report identified me as having 'osteopenia' or thinning bones. They told me very firmly that I needed to take 1200 mg per day of calcium.

Well, I read a lot of articles and books about this. I became a research maniac. My decision was to take NO calcium supplement at all, but to focus on healthy foods as much as possible, and increase my exercise to include strength training. Over this period of time I've done very well with the healthy food and perhaps medium-well on the exercise--overall not quite as consistent with the strength training as I'd like to be but pretty good on the aerobic. I've also been using a natural progesterone cream (which may help to build bone).

The new results? No change from before. Now, before you say that's disappointing news, keep in mind that normally women at my stage of life (just about right at menopause) are losing from 3% to 8% of their bone mass every year! It seems that I'm holding my own very well. McDougalling works!

Dr. McDougall says people shouldn't even get these tests, and I now agree with him. The amount of worry that I have spent on this 'problem' is ridiculous. On the other hand, I'm sure glad I got scared enough to finally start exercising! I plan to keep this up the rest of my life.

By the way, the number of women in their 50's who fall into the 'osteopenia' category? --40%. Now, is that outrageous, or what? Selling sickness, indeed.

I don't take any calcium at this time. I planned to but forgot. LOL.

Good for you for doing the weight training, too. That's supposed to be excellent for building bone density.

Good for you!

I agree totally...these tests are selling fear. The drugs they recommend for osteoporosis are downright dangerous...they can cause anything from serious esophageal dysfunction to bone cancer...no good!

It's interesting to note that Asian women ALWAYS score lower on bone density, but don't have anywhere near the fracture rates of Western women...and fracture is what the whole ordeal is about, ultimately.

Penultimately, is is presumably about bone density...but I've read numerous things suggesting that it's more about bone cell turnover rate, or the ability of bones to replace themselves as necessary, than actual measurable density of bone. Women who scored higher on bone density were found to be in a higher risk category for breast cancer...so...abnormally dense bones may in fact be a marker for something else wrong.

Taking calcium supplements is no good either...the body reduces its absorption rate of calcium for its own protection when massive amounts are included, either in the diet or by pills. Your ability to absorb needed calcium changes constantly as to how much calcium you are consuming daily.

Some celiac-specialist gastroenterologists are recommending for anyone who has diagnosable osteoporosis, not talkin' 'bout osteopenia, but actual disease--osteoporosis...some are recommending that they get tested for celiac, since intestinal absorption difficulties might really be responsible for a lot of cases of osteoporosis. Of course, all of us here also know that eating meat causes calcium to be removed from the bones to buffer the acidic conditions that would otherwise result in a meat-eater's diet.

The World Health Organization recommended only 400 mgs. of calcium per adult per day, up until just a few years back when they caved to corporations like everybody else.

Dr. McDougall has pointed out that younger women will always have denser bones because of the stage of their life, than older women...and it means nothing as far as bone cell turnover, healthy bones that resist fracture. It just points to their particular stage of life, as nature prepared them for their likely scenarios.

This whole bone-bullying thing doctors are doing is totally wrong, and it's gonna get lots of women (they're even beginning to target men) into trouble!

Thanks for taking the time to report back to us on this, and the intersesting pole too, AnnaS .

oops...I meant...POLL!

AnnaS.

Thanks so much for this post. It is a great encouragement to me.

I had a hysterectomy in Aug., and can take no HRT because I get nauseated.

Currently I'm taking a multi-vit. that just has 45% RDA for calcium. But when it runs out, I'm not going to buy any more. I'll just take B-12.

I do strength training on a total gym and soloflex 5 days a week, and walk 3 miles a day right now.

The doctor that did my surgery has really pressed me to have a bone density test, but I believe I'll pass it up!

Noodle

Your exercise program sounds great, keep it up. One thing I did to help me get enough greens, etc. in my diet was to post a list of calcium/mineral rich foods on my refrigerator. So when I get a nervous feeling (am I doing enough for my bones??) I check the list and make sure I eat some things from it every day. This is more just a way to keep calm about it.

As I understand it, when someone's estrogen drops (via surgery or just age) typically bone mass WILL go down, this is normal and expected. Then once the hormones get into balance the bone loss levels out to around 1% a year. At that point, it becomes much easier to GAIN bone density (assuming you need to) with nutrition and exercise, because you're not battling such a strong trend. In other words, even if you lose a little now you can gain it back later.

If you took the advice to get tested, you might possibly see a drop over the next couple of years and that might cause worry and alarm, and then a couple years after that you'd see you didn't have a problem after all. You really don't need the hassle. Your bones will be fine!

Thanks for all the good information, AnnaS.

You sure are right about not needing the hassle. I have had my fill of doctor appointments, thank you!

I do eat ALOT of calcium rich dark greens and fruit.

Again, thanks a bunch.

I chose the option "healthy food" but I could have also said 'less than recommended." Sometimes I take a small dose of calcium/magnesium because I notice muscle tenseness that is helped by the supplement, but I think it's the magnesium that helps not the calcium. Guess I should look to see what foods are good sources of magnesium.

I'd like to know more about this. I'm being treated now for a sort of strange variety of symptoms, with terrible muscle spasm (unrelieved by really strong drugs like methocarbamol/Robaxin) that's been persistent for many many months. Also doing chiropractic and PT, including a little massage, myofascial release, etc. Not to go totally off-topic here but if someone has good ideas about magnesium, I'd like to hear them.

Also, is there any benefit to taking calcium, zinc, and magnesium as supplements or in food sources together? Or is that just a handy marketing bundle?

Sorry, I'm really not sure. All I know is that I have had two chiropractors who could tell just by touching me if I'd been taking my calcium/magnesium because my muscles are like cement. Actually I rarely take any supplements, and find that exercise and stretching helps. But sometimes I do take them. My understanding is that it is the magnesium not the calcium that helps. But this is just run-of-the-mill muscle tightness, not a condition that requires medication. Why don't you ask your chiro?

thanks, Serenity. I've read bits and pieces here and there about magnesium, particularly in terms of supporting healthy sleep (when sleep is disordered) and reducing muscle spasm in the midst of chronic illness. I will definitely ask the chiro what she thinks when I see her next January. Unfortunately I have a rheumatologist who might not be as keen to advise on supplements, but I will ask him also.

I'm sort of in a bind...one of those things where I feel awful and no one can figure out what's really going on. But we'll get to the bottom of it. Something's gotta give.

Thanks for this very interesting poll and for sharing your fascinating "osteo story". I had the bone density test, was diagnosed with osteoporosis, and still wonder if I should be taking calcium supplements. I would like to know, which calcium-rich foods do you focus on including in your diet? Congratulations on "winning" without medicating, by choosing healthy eating and exercise!

Yamster, I'm posting my "refrigerator list" of calcium-rich foods. I put this on my refrigerator so that when I feel nervous about what I'm doing for my bones, I can check to see that I'm eating some of these foods every day. It is reassuring, but of course there is at least some calcium in most of the McDougall approved foods!

What you are NOT eating is part of the equation, too--those animal proteins that deplete people's calcium are the key reason (besides inactivity) for the relatively high proportion of osteoporosis in Western countries. Also, low sodium, low potassium (soft drinks), low sugar intake are said to be helpful.

Dr. McDougall doesn't say absolutely you shouldn't take calcium--in his book McDougall for Women if I recall correctly he says that if you decide to take supplemental calcium it should be in a relatively small dose (300 mg?) and this "won't do much harm." You might want to read this, see p. 177. You could then check with him directly to see if that is still his position (he might have changed his view depending on research published since that book).

Anyway, here's the list !

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Foods especially high in calcium (and other important minerals!):

GREENS: Collard greens, turnip greens, bok choi, kale, mustard greens, beet greens, parsley, Swiss chard, spinach, romaine lettuce,dandelion greens, sorrel, all kinds of sprouts...

VEGGIES: Okra, broccoli, cauliflower, turnips, rutabagas, parsnips, green beans, peas, pumpkin, artichoke, cabbage, leeks, carrots...

SEA VEGETABLES: arame, hijiki, wakame, kelp...

FRUIT: Dried figs, oranges, blackberries, watermelon, prunes...

BREADS: Corn tortillas

GRAINS: amaranth, barley, millet, teff

BEANS: Tofu & other soy products. Also: garbanzo beans (chickpeas), great northern beans, navy beans, pinto beans, lima beans, kidney beans, blackeyed peas, lentils...

NUTS & SEEDS: Almonds, almond butter, sesame seeds (tahini), flax seeds, sunflower seeds...

BEVERAGES: Mineral water, fortified orange juice.

OTHER: Blackstrap molasses, regular molasses, maple syrup, carob...

REMEMBER: Many other foods also have at least SOME calcium! (rice, oatmeal, apples, cantaloupe, strawberries, mushrooms, sweet potatoes, eggplant, etc, etc.)

I would like to reinforce an idea AnnaS mentions: Taking calcium IN is only one small part of the equation of calcium balance.

You should also make sure you are not LOSING calcium unnecessarily.

Cut your protein intake to a reasonable minimum and thus conserve calcium. Dr. McDougall has written about this in one of his newsletter articles. Perhaps someone on this board will help you find it. It is crucial for understanding and therefore for correct action.

Eliminate salt, because salt leaches calcium from the bones, I recall.