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I started the "whole plant" regime 6 months ago which I followed rigorously and feel great. Cholesterol dropped 93 pts to 129 and I lost 10 lbs from 128 to 118 (5'9") in 1 month. Benefits that I have noticed are no more joint pain, plenty of energy, my skin has become incredibly soft. I could go on...but, now that I'm a convert I'd like to fine tune my diet to get the most benefits. Esselstyn says limit use of milk substitues, but by how much? I noticed oat milk has 19g of sugar, is that why it should be limited? The Engine 2 cookbook says any milk sub with less than 2.5 g of fat is okay, so, does that mean low fat soy milk which is lower in sugar than oat or rice milk is better?

Also would someone shed light on why green smoothies are not recommended. I love a yam, kale & banana smoothie as an easy way to consume greens, but if it's not good for you....Esselstyn's comments seemed to address people who need to lose more weight and that digestion should start in the mouth. Aren't you still getting the same nutrients? Could someone shed light on why drinking your greens is not a good idea? Thanks.

Re: smoothies. Do a search on Jeff's forum for smoothies or blending. He has explained this may times in detail. Here are a few to start:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7907

http://drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9750

viewtopic.php?t=5822

Re: milks. They're highly processed and usually have sugar added. So use sparingly. I use a fat free soy milk myself, but ONLY in tea 1-2 X a day. I can't even get through a container b/f it goes bad, LOL! If you must have cereal, use it on that but just try to limit use.

Others can offer suggestions on why one type might be better than others. I know there are issues w/ soy protein isolates, but I figured I use so little it really doesn't matter.

I also do not use milk substitutes, except for occasional meals for my family who are still SAD eaters. For that, I make cashew milk, which is from Mary McDougall--1/4 cup of cashews to a cup of water, blended. I use that for a creamy sauce for things like mac'n'not-cheese, scalloped potatoes, and so on. I try not to eat those things, because the cashew milk is so high in fat, but they taste very good.

What are you seeking from the milk substitute? That will determine what you might want to use.

And as for smoothies, I just prefer to eat the food I am eating, and not drink it. I don't need the spare calories, and I put the greens in the many soups and stews I eat all week long. I don't like the concept that the fibers have been disturbed. I don't think the occasional smoothie is horrible, but I just don't see the point (of course, living in the frozen north, a cold drink is the last thing on my mind 11 months out of the year!). Hmmm...a hot kale and banana toddy?

On SMOOTHIES
Thanks for your responses and links. So...blending food elevates your blood sugar. Digestion starts in the mouth. I knew that fruit smoothies were verbotin because you need to limit your fruit intake to 3 servings a day, but thought if I didn't go over the 3 servings limit and added greens that would work.

I already put greens in my veggie stews, but don't think it's enought and don't feel like making a salad after I have just cooked rice, veggies, beans, hummus etc. I thought it would be an easy way to add more kale to the diet.

On MILK
Weight is not an issue as I don't want to lose anymore lbs. Milk added to a green smoothie keeps it from being too "acidy".
Also, I like milk in my oatmeal and steamed in my espresso in the morning. I will be very sad to find milk on the forbidden list as well. If sugar, fat and soy processing are the issues, maybe no fat almond milk would work although it's so watery:(

Cashew milk would be way too high in fat following the advice of Campbell & Esselstyn regarding heart disease.

COST
Although, I do love the "whole plant" regime, it has proven to be expensive (all organic produce) and time consuming, contrary to what everyone says. Between my husband and I, we spend at least $2500 a month not including restaurants. I make some kind of veggie medly with a whole grain for lunch & dinner and have oatmeal at breakfast. We snack on rice cakes and no fat hummus and apples. Without the fat, I compensate with the use of spices, vanilla, balsamic ($$) etc, which are not cheap.

Of course, I think it is money well spent, but am always surprised to hear people say you will save money. I used to eat grass fed filet mignon a few times a month at $30lb and imported cheeses that were ridiculously expensive, but eating only veggies and grains has proven to be more expensive. We eat copious amounts of vegetables aprox 3x veggies to 1x grains and they are not cheap. I confess that I will buy fresh raspberries in January if they look good and have not been actively trying to save money.

I tell myself after years of living to eat, that now, I must eat to live and consider food as medicinal. I am continually stunned to find health issues that plagued me, like eye problems and joint stiffness, have been resolved by eating only veggies and grains. Incredible!

Well, no one said you have to buy organic stuff. I choose a few things that are organic, but mostly not. A lot of the organic thing is bogus anyway--laws regarding what organic means vary from place to place.

Seriously??!?!?! I'm sorry, but that is ABSURD. No one should be spending that. Just get some veggies and beans and grains or taters and make a meal. I spend $300 a month for myself (not including eating out) and I eat very well. If you're spending that much you are either buying some serious gourmet ingredients, you're buying lots of prepared foods, or your local grocer has your number!


Um . . . HUH? Unless you're getting some kinda fancy balsamic *I* don't know about (and if so, STOP!), it shouldn't cost more than $2 or so. I sure don't spend much on mine and it's fine. Ditto spices. The best quality is at Indian groceries, and they are cheap!

If you don't mind spending this kind of $$, that's up to you. But please don't mislead others here. This IS a pretty inexpensive way to eat as long as you don't view your balsamic the way some view 200 year old whiskey. Use simple ingredients and make simple food--that's the peasant way to eat and it's always been the CHEAP way to eat!

Hold your fire! My bad, meant to say $1500 a month. Even still, pricey. I do think organic food is important especially with fruit and veggies that are thin skinned. Never thought I'd be blasted for wanting to eat "clean" food.

As I said, I haven NOT been actively trying to save money, but saved receipts for one month and was surprised at the cost. I am certainly NOT trying to dissuade anyone from this diet and would and do recommend it to others.

Whole grains are wonderful and inexpensive, but find when I eat them with a ratio of 1 to 3 (3 being veggies) the cost goes way up. Produce is expensive. Organic frozen blueberries cost $5 per 2 cups.

Yes, I do splurge on expensive balsamic. I don't drink alcohol, and now not eating meat, dairy or fat, I feel a bit ostracized from most social gatherings, thus feel the need to spoil myself a little.

I'm not blasting you -- simply pointing out that it is very easy to eat this way inexpensively. You are adding things that are not necessary, which is why your costs are so high ( and $1500 a month for 2 still makes me go ). That's your business--if those things are important to you, go for it! But most people can't afford to spend that much and don't wish to--and the great thing is that it's not necessary to spend much to eat this way. I want to make sure no one lurking here thinks for a minute that it is.

Check out Jeff's forum. His SNAP meals can feed one on VERY little and he also has some interesting things to say about so-called "organics," many of which just aren't, so often one is spending extra money needlessly.

As I said, I do choose some things that are labelled as organic, but honestly I have very little way of knowing how "organic" they really are, and I know it!

I avoid milk substitutes except for occasional uses in cooking. I never was much of a milk drinker so I never had to deal with those cravings. I used to drink a lot of fruit juices and now don't drink those. I don't think many of us use milk substitutes as a regular drink. What about the rest of us?
f1jim

Of course I always gravitate to the thing I shouldn't, but what do you put on your oatmeal in the morning? Someone mentioned apple juice in Esselstyn's book, but that sounds weird to me and also I thought fruit juice was forbidden.

This is the last thing I'll say about cost...I am comparing the cost to what I used to spend when I ate meat, dairy and cheese. What I found on this diet is that I now eat 4 x more food than I did before, which is great in that I'm never hungry and don't gain weight, but it does make my food bill larger. I buy all grains and legumes in bulk, never cans and the only premade foods that I buy are jars of salsa and tomato paste/sauce and bread.

If I put 1/2 cup each of frozen blueberries on our oatmeal everyday, at $5 for 2 cups that's $17.50 per week or $70.20 per month. Yes, I realize that I don't need to eat blueberries everyday, I'm just saying fruit and produce are expensive when that comprises 75% of your diet and comparatively, I am paying more now than before. I think it is well worth it, but wanted to mention my experience because I keep hearing that it's much cheaper.

I alternate water and pure pomegranate juice on my oatmeal.
f1jim

I stopped buying milk substitutes years ago. I eat my oatmeal plain with a mashed banana or some blueberries. If I need some sort of milk for a 'creme of' soup, I blend 1/4 cup cooked brown rice with a cup of water and strain it through a nut milk bag.

As far as cost goes, I did a challenge last year where I only allowed myself $3 a day for food. You can read about it here if you want:
viewtopic.php?t=22365

I recently picked up the book 'Vegan on $4 a Day' and may redo my challenge in the near future with a bigger budget .

Kate

Thanks Kate, that was interesting to see the break down of cost. You put me to shame! I am going to be more cognisant of what goes in my grocery basket. Maybe the blueberries will be a monthly treat rather than an everyday thing.

Seems those in the know are totally over the milk substitutes. I'm still trying to make my meals resemble the ones from my carnivore days.

James,
I just watched your video. What a story!
We're about the same age, but I am just finding about the power of good nutrition.

I'm curious how you handle eating out at a friend's house. My husband and I have adopted the, "when in Rome" principle, but then feel guilty afterwards. The few times I did mention that we were eating a whole plant diet, we were often met with a semi-vegan meal loaded with fat. Most people don't get it, but I don't necessarily feel like it's their job either. The fact that we don't drink, doesn't help matters. How do you handle eating out?

Our friends we eat out with will accommodate our eating style and seem to enjoy trying to please us. We also offer to bring food if the people are a bit new to our choices. It doesn't take long to get them understanding our choices. A few meals and they start to comprehend the plan in basic ways.
Eating out is much tougher. There are a very small number of places we are comfortable eating at. Even when we find choices that meet our lifestyle it is usually one or two items we can have. The good news is the number of places that we are finding is growing and I am encouraged by the spread of plant based eating. I see better things on the horizon.
f1jim

I live in Alaska, and our food bill did not change much when I switched to this way of eating--DH stayed having his Porterhouses, etc., and I spent money, like you, on the balsamic ($14.00 per liter from Costco), mustards, and other condiments, in my early days. That said, I eat a LOT of frozen mixed veggies (mostly organic from Costco), and my blueberries are also from Costco--not organic, but so luscious and $15 for 5 lbs. Our food bill when we are spendthrifty is about $1000, and $600 when we are penny-pinching. Stuff costs here. I don't bother with organic fresh produce much, since most of it here looks like it fell off the back of a truck--withered, spotted and just not fresh.

As far as what to put on oatmeal--I never made it with milk before, and I just make it with water and have those frozen blueberries on it. Or I eat it plain--and I am now loving the taste--your tastebuds really do change.

And eating out--that mine field! I think you were especially referring to the more non-planned types of events, like when I visited my brother in CA, with the time set at 4, and I didn't think he'd asked us to dinner, but his dear wife had made all sorts of lovely food. I did a half-version of the "when in Rome," eating the salad which was already dressed, jacket potatoes that had likely been oiled on the outside, and so on. I kept up the conversation and enjoyed everyone's company, and didn't eat a lot. The thing is, this way of eating produces such a feeling in myself of abundance--I know I will have good food to eat--that I can afford to go hungry when I'm in a situation like that.

As to restaurants--when someone at work impulsively says, "Do you want to go out to lunch?" I say yes, and let them pick the place. Then I get my food out of the fridge and eat before we go. Everyone knows I do this, and laughs at me fondly, since they watched me lose 100 pounds day by day the last 2 years. Then at the restaurant I can have anything that's available--a salad with no dressing, steamed rice, a baked potato, or just hot tea.

Restaurants are always a surprise and a challenge. I can never predict who will cheerfully give me steamed rice and veggies, and who has NOTHING on the menu I could or would eat. But once again, that feeling of abundance (usually) gets me through. And I make a point of enjoying the company and making conversation!