Discussion Board

i consider myself a traditional foodie and i am about 90% vegan. Sometimes a little less or a little more. I agree with your DH about animal products *in moderate to large quantities* as being bad for you but there really is no evidence that a diet that is ~8-10% animal products is harmful for you, and in fact it might be good for you. Even Dr. Fuhrman admits this in "Eat to Live."

i think there is also a big difference between an ideal child diet and an ideal adult diet. I can't say exactly what the proportions should be but it goes to reason that growing children need "high growth" foods like meat and dairy in ways that adults do not.

Ambereva, if it's not too personal, would you share how long you've been vegan? The reason I ask is that for me and my family, going grain-free vegan (and 95% raw) was really relieving. We had a surprising detox period, and afterward, we all had more energy, more mental clarity, and looked better than ever before. We ate lots of nut and seed oils and evoo, too. At the nine month-mark, all of us suddenly lost all of that energy, became almost lethargic, dark circles appeared around all of our sets of eyes, dp and I felt mentally hazy, and it was clear that our dc did too. We thought we were fighting off a virus or something, but after the third week of this, during which we also turned a sickly pale shade of grey, it occurred to us that maybe we were not getting enough nutrients. I went back to researching everything I could find from one extreme perspective, right through the spectrum to the other extreme. We decided to add in raw cheese and organic, free-range eggs. We all felt ravenous for more than the small amounts we introduced, so we began to seek out organic meats. We ate those meats like we had never eaten before. Once we reincorporated dairy and meat, our colour returned, our energy returned, and I started us on bone broth and all things TF, including grains because mt dp really wanted bread back in his diet.

Now we've all decided enough with the grains. I eat little anyway because I don't enjoy them and having been grain-free for seven years before meeting my previously grain-loving dp, I knew that I was very much healthier without them.

Now we eat grain-free TF, very much like The Primal Blueprint, but more emphasis on fermented foods than the PB, and we do eat raw organic cheeses and butter.

Soooo, the reason I wondered how long you've been vegan is because it seems to me from my experiences and those of others I know, some of whom were vegan for a very long time and had to rescue their deteriorating health by reintroducing dead animal to their diets, the length of time most people feel great as vegans is often proportionate to the length of time they ate very poorly before that. That is, eating vegan serves as a detox-program, and for some, there is more to detox than for others, and the longer one ate poorly before, the longer his/her health improves as a vegan. This was certainly true for me, relative to the experiences of others. But, ime, there's a cut-off, after which the benefits once so abundant, are replaced by symptoms that are alleviated by eating animal and animal products (dairy, eggs).

I know this is anecdotal and not formally scientific, but I am doing field science with this myself: the whole scientific method is stringently employed through practice here. "Science" is human beings gathering and analysing information, including how to best do that, and then positing conclusions. This is not in a lab, but it's actually peer reviewed, in spite of our lackadaisical presentation and lack of conferred credentials. I'm being somewhat facetious, but not completely: science serves its master, the human faculty of reason, and I have one of those. I also know from objective evidence that it works very well, so I trust my observations and agree with my conclusions unless and until something more accurate presents; then I align my conclusions accordingly.

So saying, it appears to me that the raw vegan diet was beneficial for a time for detoxification. I felt great because of that and because I was not eating inflammatory grain products. But it isn't good for the body to be in a sustained state of externally imposed detox; it is tiring to the body. Meat and dairy brought back nutrients I needed, bone broth returned minerals and further healing, but then I ate grains again. Soaking, sprouting and all manner of preparation just didn't take away the effect it had always had on my body. Now, grain-free, traditional foods from my particular ancestry are the best sustainable and nourishing way I can eat. My family is healthy with this, too. My children are sleeping (after seven years of constant struggle to sleep and stay asleep), waking refreshed, growing beautifully- muscular; very high bone density; thick layers of clear enamel on beautifully-formed teeth; curious, alert, calm dispositions; highly intelligent; etc...- and my baby's gassiness has stopped since this change. I've lost weight, too- no doubt unneeded water now that I don't have grain to process.

You are feeling great on a vegan diet. If you stop feeling great, please consider that it might be your vegan diet. Of course, above all, do what's best for you.

Now here's a convincing long-term raw, vegan lifestyle. Their dc are gorgeous. They have a trait that is common to every (always) raw vegan child I've seen, though. They have almost or no nose bridge at all. Their cute little noses just sort of spring off their faces below their eyes. Neither of their parents have this trait, but neither of them grew up raw vegan, either. Their whole life seems to be about food; I cannot figure out how else it could work. It seems to be working for Jinjee and Storm at least.

Here's the blog of the author of The Primal Blueprint. Pay special attention to the pics of Mark in the header, and check out the success stories here and on the forum.

Here's an interesting site called Beyond Vegetarianism, and it has information about/against many types of non-animal-eating restrictive diets and anthropological findings to support animal-based diets.

Well, there's some food for thought.

Also, I have always understood the definition of omnivore to be that it is expected, systemically, that vegetation and animal products be consumed, not that one may be completely eliminated and replaced with the other by individual preference. At least not without the potential for dire consequences. The proportions of each seem to me to be the reasonable variable, as long as one of them isn't "zero."

My children are sleeping (after seven years of constant struggle to sleep and stay asleep), waking refreshed, growing beautifully- muscular; very high bone density; thick layers of clear enamel on beautifully-formed teeth; curious, alert, calm dispositions; highly intelligent; etc...-

...grain-free vegan (and 95% raw)...We ate lots of nut and seed oils and evoo, too.

I got a lot of support at MDC for child-led weaning "back in the day". The nutrition boards are another story altogether! I haven't gone to MDC for a few years now, but why visit boards (NT) that go against what you believe?