Intelligence, Atheism, and Vegetarianism

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Intelligence, Atheism, and Vegetarianism

Postby Letha.. » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:21 pm

It’s been my observation that vegetarianism is popular among atheists and agnostics and I’ve speculated that this is because both being a vegetarian and being an atheist/agnostic require that you reject the cultural norm and very likely the values of your family of origin and instead choose your own values. But I have been unable to corroborate my observation with any statistical studies that I could find on the internet. I found a study in BBC News that says that vegetarians tend to be more intelligent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6180753.stm

And another one in US World Report that says that atheists tend to be more intelligent.

http://www.usnews.com/health/family-hea ... print.html

But I can’t locate anything that says that there is a higher percentage of vegetarians or vegans among atheists then among other population groups. If you know of any study or statistical analysis that speaks to this please share. Thanks.
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Re: Intelligence, Atheism, and Vegetarianism

Postby afreespirit » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:25 pm

Good point Letha! :-D
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Re: Intelligence, Atheism, and Vegetarianism

Postby motherofpearl » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:28 pm

if this is some kind of poll....i like to think we vegans are more intelligent, but i am definately NOT an atheist...
as a matter of fact, i got into this because i started to read the bible.
in God's "perfect" world, Eden,if you believe the bible, and i really don't believe most of those old testament stories....however, in God's perfect world, God created animals to be Adam's companion before he created Eve!!! and what made them ever think that after Eve dried up, that they should go to an animal to get their milk!they had not even invented ice cream or cheese cake yet!

i don't know why this affected me so much, i am definately NOT a fundamentalist...I pick and choose what i want to out of the bible, but it really affected me.
you could never convince me that God wants us to eat his creatures..especially since he took so much pain telling Noah to take them on that ark....and in the new testament..."if he takes care of the sparrow, then surely he will take care of me"...oops, i found a dead sparrow in my back yard today...hmm.
he gave his peops permission to eat meat after the flood when all of the vegitation was gone....and I think the people could not give it up once they tasted that meat! it is hard...that's why i feel like i am the only vegan in mississippi sometimes.
i have since gone from the biblical to the health reasons..... and truly believe that this is the best way to and the way that God intended for us to eat. but i am definately not an atheist!
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Re: Intelligence, Atheism, and Vegetarianism

Postby Letha.. » Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:01 am

Hi Frannie,
I wasn’t so much looking to do a poll as I was hoping that someone had come across a book or an article that had statistics on the percentage of vegetarians or vegans among atheists and other social groups.

I stopped attending church long before I became a vegetarian so I’m not familiar with the how Christians reconcile their belief in the bible with a vegetarian lifestyle. You mentioned the bible reference giving people permission to eat meat after the flood when there was no vegetation. Of course they would also have to be careful about eating animals since there was only two of every kind of animal and if you ate one you might cause the species to become extinct. Does the great flood happen before or after the Deuteronomy instructions about the types of animals you can eat?


Deuteronomy 14:3-20 (New King James Version)
Clean and Unclean Meat

3 “You shall not eat any detestable thing. 4 These are the animals which you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, 5 the deer, the gazelle, the roe deer, the wild goat, the mountain goat,[a] the antelope, and the mountain sheep. 6 And you may eat every animal with cloven hooves, having the hoof split into two parts, and that chews the cud, among the animals. 7 Nevertheless, of those that chew the cud or have cloven hooves, you shall not eat, such as these: the camel, the hare, and the rock hyrax; for they chew the cud but do not have cloven hooves; they are unclean for you. 8 Also the swine is unclean for you, because it has cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud; you shall not eat their flesh or touch their dead carcasses.
9 “These you may eat of all that are in the waters: you may eat all that have fins and scales. 10 And whatever does not have fins and scales you shall not eat; it is unclean for you.
11 “All clean birds you may eat. 12 But these you shall not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the buzzard, 13 the red kite, the falcon, and the kite after their kinds; 14 every raven after its kind; 15 the ostrich, the short-eared owl, the sea gull, and the hawk after their kinds; 16 the little owl, the screech owl, the white owl, 17 the jackdaw, the carrion vulture, the fisher owl, 18 the stork, the heron after its kind, and the hoopoe and the bat.
19 “Also every creeping thing that flies is unclean for you; they shall not be eaten.
20 “You may eat all clean birds.


Not being familiar with the philosophy of vegetarian Christians I’ve wondered if the reasoning used to no longer practice animal sacrifice as described in the bible is the same reasoning used to no longer eat meat.

Leviticus 1 (King James Version)

1And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
5And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
6And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.
7And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:
8And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
9But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
10And if his offering be of the flocks, namely, of the sheep, or of the goats, for a burnt sacrifice; he shall bring it a male without blemish.
11And he shall kill it on the side of the altar northward before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall sprinkle his blood round about upon the altar.
12And he shall cut it into his pieces, with his head and his fat: and the priest shall lay them in order on the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
13But he shall wash the inwards and the legs with water: and the priest shall bring it all, and burn it upon the altar: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
14And if the burnt sacrifice for his offering to the LORD be of fowls, then he shall bring his offering of turtledoves, or of young pigeons.
15And the priest shall bring it unto the altar, and wring off his head, and burn it on the altar; and the blood thereof shall be wrung out at the side of the altar:
16And he shall pluck away his crop with his feathers, and cast it beside the altar on the east part, by the place of the ashes:
17And he shall cleave it with the wings thereof, but shall not divide it asunder: and the priest shall burn it upon the altar, upon the wood that is upon the fire: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.


I’m curious about the reasoning of vegetarian Christians because even though I’m not a Christian, for the sake of our planet I very much want to encourage and support Christians who choose to avoid eating animal products.
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Re: Intelligence, Atheism, and Vegetarianism

Postby Mrs. Doodlepunk » Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:58 am

Letha.. wrote:I’m curious about the reasoning of vegetarian Christians because even though I’m not a Christian, for the sake of our planet I very much want to encourage and support Christians who choose to avoid eating animal products.


I can give you the reasoning of one intelligent Christian - me. 8) I eat a vegetarian or "vegan" diet for health. No other reason.

I love animals and keep pets and take good care of them. I kill spiders inside my house but those huge ones in the yard outside that make holes and live in my garden I barely tolerate because i know they eat bugs that eat my garden plants.

If I had grown up on a farm and had to deal with killing my own meat, I doubt I would have eaten much chicken or beef or lamb, but then if my family were starving I believe I could kill something for food. If there were no beans or potatoes, that is. 8)

Here is what we are watching this morning: http://www.ustream.tv/theowlbox One baby hatched last night, I believe there are two live babies and two eggs left to hatch! Cool stuff. And, they are meat eaters! :eek:

edited to add: I forgot the "reasoning" part! God tells us it's OK to eat meat, but not that I MUST eat meat. The Old Testament rules do not apply to Christians because Jesus bought us back from Satan when he died and took the punishment we were supposed to get for our sins.

So in our Christian freedom we live our lives and everything we do is motivated by love for God for setting us free from sin.
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Re: Intelligence, Atheism, and Vegetarianism

Postby Letha.. » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:34 am

Mrs. Doodlepunk wrote:edited to add: I forgot the "reasoning" part! God tells us it's OK to eat meat, but not that I MUST eat meat. The Old Testament rules do not apply to Christians because Jesus bought us back from Satan when he died and took the punishment we were supposed to get for our sins.

So in our Christian freedom we live our lives and everything we do is motivated by love for God for setting us free from sin.


Hi Mrs. Doodlepunk,
Thanks for clarifying that for me. I didn’t realize that the Old Testament rules didn’t apply to Christians. Do Christians follow the 10 commandments laid out in the Old Testament?
Letha


Exodus 20 (King James Version)

1And God spake all these words, saying,
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13Thou shalt not kill.
14Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15Thou shalt not steal.
16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
18And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
21And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
22And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
23Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
24An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
25And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
26Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.
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Re: Intelligence, Atheism, and Vegetarianism

Postby Mrs. Doodlepunk » Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:23 am

Am I being tested? :cool:

I was a bit simplistic about the Old Testament not applying to Christians today. Actually there were three sections of OT law; moral, civil and ceremonial. The moral law applies to us still, and was restated by Jesus and in other places in the New Testament. Civil laws were the ones God gave the Israelites because he was their God, intended as their code of law for their society. The ceremonial laws were about worship and they were fulfilled by Jesus. So the civil and ceremonial laws (about things like circumcision and what we can and can't eat) don't apply to NT Christians.

Sure, the 10 Commandments aren't really just suggestions, so we try our best to follow those rules. They are part of the Law that shows us our sin and then the Gospel shows us salvation.

It's also mentioned in Scripture that all of this is foolishness to an unbeliever.
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Re: Intelligence, Atheism, and Vegetarianism

Postby dlb » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:10 am

Letha -

As Mrs. Doodlepunk said Christ came to fulfill the law. The law, written in the OT, is what God's believers used to live under. Since Christ's crucifixtion, believer's now live under grace.

In this verse, you can see how Christ restated commandments into one statement.

Matthew 22:36-40 (New King James Version)
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

This verse is where Christ restated the food laws:

Mark 7:18-19 (New King James Version)
18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?”[a]

I believe that way back when in the Garden of Eden, God gave mankind all that he needed for the perfect foods - plants and herbs. However, he also created us that we could eat animals and live. So eating this way is not because of any Christian belief on my part.

However, my Christian beliefs do help inspire and motivate me to achieve God's will in my life. And I believe that the McDougall plan is certainly His will for me.

I too love animals and feel so much better not eating them.

And I agree with you that we should encourage and support all our family and friends in any way we can to live this healthy, earth friendly way. My family is a big mixed bag - brother Buddish, cousins Jewish, cousins Protestant, cousins Catholic, cousins Atheist. To each their own, I love them all.

One thing I am sure about though is McDougalling is best for all of them :D.

Donna
To read how the McDougall Program helped me reach my goals, go here:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/donna_byrnes.html
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Re: Intelligence, Atheism, and Vegetarianism

Postby Letha.. » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:26 am


Donna & Mrs. Doodlepunk. Thanks for explaining how the New Testament overrides the Old Testament. I’ve never heard that before about the three types of Old Testament Law; moral, civil and ceremonial. Is there a list somewhere that has the laws divided up by category so Christians can easily figure out which laws to apply and which ones to ignore?

I’ve heard some non-Christians complain that Christians cherry pick from the bible the verses that support their point of view and ignore the rest. But I am personally very happy that Christians are able to find a way to make their religion work in a modern society. I’m especially happy that they have evolved to no longer follow the Christian Bible rules or attitudes toward women as exemplified in some of these passages.
Letha


Exodus 21:4 (King James Version)
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

Exodus 21:7-11 (King James Version)
7And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
9And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
10If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
11And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.

Exodus 22:18 (King James Version)
18Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Leviticus 12:1-4 (King James Version)
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
3And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
4And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.

Leviticus 15:19-32 (King James Version)
19And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.
20And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean.
21And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
22And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
23And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even.
24And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean.
25And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she shall be unclean.
26Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation: and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation.
27And whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
28But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean.
29And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
30And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness.
31Thus shall ye separate the children of Israel from their uncleanness; that they die not in their uncleanness, when they defile my tabernacle that is among them.
32This is the law of him that hath an issue, and of him whose seed goeth from him, and is defiled therewith;

Leviticus 21:9 (King James Version)
9And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
Numbers 5:11-31 (King James Version)
11And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
12Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
13And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
14And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
15Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
16And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD:
17And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
18And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
19And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
20But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
21Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
22And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
23And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
24And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
25Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
26And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
27And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
28And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
29This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
30Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
31Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

Numbers 31:17-18 (King James Version)
17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Deuteronomy 22:13-21 (King James Version)
13If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
14And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
15Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
16And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
17And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
18And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
19And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
20But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 (King James Version)
23If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (King James Version)
28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 (King James Version)
11When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets:
12Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.

2 Kings 9:30-37 (New King James Version)
30 Now when Jehu had come to Jezreel, Jezebel heard of it; and she put paint on her eyes and adorned her head, and looked through a window. 31 Then, as Jehu entered at the gate, she said, “Is it peace, Zimri, murderer of your master?”
32 And he looked up at the window, and said, “Who is on my side? Who?” So two or three eunuchs looked out at him. 33 Then he said, “Throw her down.” So they threw her down, and some of her blood spattered on the wall and on the horses; and he trampled her underfoot. 34 And when he had gone in, he ate and drank. Then he said, “Go now, see to this accursed woman, and bury her, for she was a king’s daughter.” 35 So they went to bury her, but they found no more of her than the skull and the feet and the palms of her hands. 36 Therefore they came back and told him. And he said, “This is the word of the LORD, which He spoke by His servant Elijah the Tishbite, saying, ‘On the plot of ground at Jezreel dogs shall eat the flesh of Jezebel;[a] 37 and the corpse of Jezebel shall be as refuse on the surface of the field, in the plot at Jezreel, so that they shall not say, “Here lies Jezebel.”’”

Proverbs 5
1 My son, pay attention to my wisdom;
Lend your ear to my understanding,
2 That you may preserve discretion,
And your lips may keep knowledge.
3 For the lips of an immoral woman drip honey,
And her mouth is smoother than oil;
4 But in the end she is bitter as wormwood,
Sharp as a two-edged sword.
5 Her feet go down to death,
Her steps lay hold of hell.[a]
6 Lest you ponder her path of life—
Her ways are unstable;
You do not know them.
7 Therefore hear me now, my children,
And do not depart from the words of my mouth.
8 Remove your way far from her,
And do not go near the door of her house,
9 Lest you give your honor to others,
And your years to the cruel one;
10 Lest aliens be filled with your wealth,
And your labors go to the house of a foreigner;
11 And you mourn at last,
When your flesh and your body are consumed,
12 And say:

“ How I have hated instruction,
And my heart despised correction!
13 I have not obeyed the voice of my teachers,
Nor inclined my ear to those who instructed me!
14 I was on the verge of total ruin,
In the midst of the assembly and congregation.”
15 Drink water from your own cistern,
And running water from your own well.
16 Should your fountains be dispersed abroad,
Streams of water in the streets?
17 Let them be only your own,
And not for strangers with you.
18 Let your fountain be blessed,
And rejoice with the wife of your youth.
19 As a loving deer and a graceful doe,
Let her breasts satisfy you at all times;
And always be enraptured with her love.
20 For why should you, my son, be enraptured by an immoral woman,
And be embraced in the arms of a seductress?
21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD,
And He ponders all his paths.
22 His own iniquities entrap the wicked man,
And he is caught in the cords of his sin.
23 He shall die for lack of instruction,
And in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray.

Proverbs 7
1 My son, keep my words,
And treasure my commands within you.
2 Keep my commands and live,
And my law as the apple of your eye.
3 Bind them on your fingers;
Write them on the tablet of your heart.
4 Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,”
And call understanding your nearest kin,
5 That they may keep you from the immoral woman,
From the seductress who flatters with her words.
6 For at the window of my house
I looked through my lattice,
7 And saw among the simple,
I perceived among the youths,
A young man devoid of understanding,
8 Passing along the street near her corner;
And he took the path to her house
9 In the twilight, in the evening,
In the black and dark night.
10 And there a woman met him,
With the attire of a harlot, and a crafty heart.
11 She was loud and rebellious,
Her feet would not stay at home.
12 At times she was outside, at times in the open square,
Lurking at every corner.
13 So she caught him and kissed him;
With an impudent face she said to him:
14 “ I have peace offerings with me;
Today I have paid my vows.
15 So I came out to meet you,
Diligently to seek your face,
And I have found you.
16 I have spread my bed with tapestry,
Colored coverings of Egyptian linen.
17 I have perfumed my bed
With myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
18 Come, let us take our fill of love until morning;
Let us delight ourselves with love.
19 For my husband is not at home;
He has gone on a long journey;
20 He has taken a bag of money with him,
And will come home on the appointed day.”
21 With her enticing speech she caused him to yield,
With her flattering lips she seduced him.
22 Immediately he went after her, as an ox goes to the slaughter,
Or as a fool to the correction of the stocks,[a]
23 Till an arrow struck his liver.
As a bird hastens to the snare,
He did not know it would cost his life.
24 Now therefore, listen to me, my children;
Pay attention to the words of my mouth:
25 Do not let your heart turn aside to her ways,
Do not stray into her paths;
26 For she has cast down many wounded,
And all who were slain by her were strong men.
27 Her house is the way to hell,
Descending to the chambers of death.

[b]Isaiah 3:16-26
(New King James Version)
16 Moreover the LORD says:

“ Because the daughters of Zion are haughty,
And walk with outstretched necks
And wanton eyes,
Walking and mincing as they go,
Making a jingling with their feet,
17 Therefore the Lord will strike with a scab
The crown of the head of the daughters of Zion,
And the LORD will uncover their secret parts.”
18 In that day the Lord will take away the finery:
The jingling anklets, the scarves, and the crescents;
19 The pendants, the bracelets, and the veils;
20 The headdresses, the leg ornaments, and the headbands;
The perfume boxes, the charms,
21 and the rings;
The nose jewels,
22 the festal apparel, and the mantles;
The outer garments, the purses,
23 and the mirrors;
The fine linen, the turbans, and the robes.

24 And so it shall be:

Instead of a sweet smell there will be a stench;
Instead of a sash, a rope;
Instead of well-set hair, baldness;
Instead of a rich robe, a girding of sackcloth;
And branding instead of beauty.
25 Your men shall fall by the sword,
And your mighty in the war.
26 Her gates shall lament and mourn,
And she being desolate shall sit on the ground.

Nahum 3:4-7 (New King James Version)
4 Because of the multitude of harlotries of the seductive harlot,
The mistress of sorceries,
Who sells nations through her harlotries,
And families through her sorceries.
5 “ Behold, I am against you,” says the LORD of hosts;

“ I will lift your skirts over your face,
I will show the nations your nakedness,
And the kingdoms your shame.
6 I will cast abominable filth upon you,
Make you vile,
And make you a spectacle.
7 It shall come to pass that all who look upon you
Will flee from you, and say,

‘ Nineveh is laid waste!
Who will bemoan her?’
Where shall I seek comforters for you?”

1 Corinthians 11:3-15 (King James Version)
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

1 Corinthians 14:34 (New King James Version)
34 Let your[a] women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.

Ephesians 5:22-24 (New King James Version)
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

Colossians 3:18-22 (New King James Version)
18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them.
20 Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord.
21 Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.
22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God.
1 Timothy 2:9 (New King James Version)
9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing,
1 Timothy 2:11-15 (New King James Version)
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.
1 Peter 3:1-6 (New King James Version)
1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.

Revelation 17

1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me,[a] “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”
3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.[b] 5 And on her forehead a name was written:

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.
7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.[c]
9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.
12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”
15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw on[d] the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”
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Re: Intelligence, Atheism, and Vegetarianism

Postby afreespirit » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:14 am

"...You mentioned the bible reference giving people permission to eat meat after the flood when there was no vegetation. Of course they would also have to be careful about eating animals since there was only two of every kind of animal and if you ate one you might cause the species to become extinct..."

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Intelligence, Atheism, and Vegetarianism

Postby Mrs. Doodlepunk » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:24 am

Letha.. wrote: I’m especially happy that they have evolved to no longer follow the Christian Bible rules or attitudes toward women as exemplified in some of these passages.


Letha, I know you're trying to ridicule Christian beliefs. I hope lots of people are following this thread! Of course, none of this has anything to do with what food we eat!

Most atheists know more about what the Bible says than people who call themselves Christians. Some people are sort of lukewarm with their beliefs, whether they are Christian or pagan or Buddhist or anything else.

There are plenty of people who cherry pick the Bible. I can see that you know plenty about what the Bible says and have cherry picked yourself.

Reading the OT is really helpful because it shows how difficult it would be to perfectly keep God's laws. No human could hope to meet God's standard of perfection, but he promised to help us out of our predicament by sending a Saviour.

The book of Revelation is like a Picasso, the gospels (Mathew, Mark, Luke and John) are like Norman Rockwell paintings.

The stuff about wives submitting to husbands and not having authority over men applies to marriage and church related matters. Women certainly have authority over men in civil matters, like when a judge is a woman and the criminal is a man, for instance.

The submitting part used to bother me, until I understood that bit about what the husbands are supposed to be like. I mean what God says they should be, not how so many of them are. They are supposed to be for their wives like Christ is for the church. Christ was sacrificed for the church, willingly gave up his life so we could live in heaven. So the husband is really more like the servant to the wife. Having a husband that shows sacrificial love for his wife really helps his wife see a little bit of how God is.

Submitting to a man like that is absolutely no problem at all. :)

God came to earth as a person to live without sin and be the perfect sacrificial lamb for us. After he was resurrected and physically was taken back to heaven, the Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost to help guide us. We have the Bible as a guide and are told we should meet together to help and support one another, which most of us do when we go to church and Bible class regularly.

As for a place where things are listed so you know what rules to follow, there is one verse that sums it all up for you.

John 3:16 (New International Version)

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Re: Intelligence, Atheism, and Vegetarianism

Postby Mrs. Doodlepunk » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:33 am

afreespirit wrote:"...You mentioned the bible reference giving people permission to eat meat after the flood when there was no vegetation. Of course they would also have to be careful about eating animals since there was only two of every kind of animal and if you ate one you might cause the species to become extinct..."

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Or maybe, in the drastically altered world after a flood that killed every plant around, the stuff that did grow was not nutritionally adequate any more like it was before the flood? So people would need meat once in a while to be healthy.

Also, certain animals were on board in more than pairs according to what the Bible says. So there were more than two of some things.

I'm pretty sure that God did not EVER say "And let there be Chicken McNuggets."
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Re: Intelligence, Atheism, and Vegetarianism

Postby dlb » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:35 am

Letha -

Sometimes the scriptures can be very confusing. I do not profess to understand them all. Between the OT and NT was the life of Christ on earth. Upon His life and death God gave mankind a new convenent with Him. As in any new agreement it over rides the old. Somethings may be similar, some things more defined, some things changed. Many Christian's believe we were given the law to begin with to show us that we cannot possibly live under it. That Christ was the only who could. Therefore, we cannot be justified by our own merits but only by Christ's.

Many church institutions still try to have their people live under the law. It is a way of gaining control, power, etc. That is one of my basic problems with some Christian religious organizations. But not to throw the baby out with the bath water, I find I have to be very careful of following Christ and not man. We are warned of this through out the NT.

As to the NT comments they were written by Christ's disciples to set up His new church on earth. Many of the things were written with the conventions of the times. Conventions change over time. That does not mean that Christ's instructions for a fruitful life for us do. As He said love your God and one another covers all. Sounds so simple doesn't it. Why is it sometimes so hard to do? (which is a comment aimed toward myself :-D)

The bible also states that in heaven there are no male and female. So why did God choose to send some of us as females and others as males?

This is what I have thought of - when Lucifer was thrown out of heaven it was for two reasons. That he did not submit to God and that he thought to make himself higher than God or the center of creation.

If we take your Ephesians a little farther, after telling women to submit he also tells husbands to love their wifes as Christ has loved us and gave himself for us or put us before Himself as in dying for us.

These were Lucifer's issue - not submitting and putting himself first.

Very simply put I think some of us need to more practice submitting and some of us need to more practice putting others before ourselves. Hence this could be why we are the genders we are. Now these are not teachings only my random thoughts and I could be wrong.

In Revelation the woman, the harlot that is spoken of is Satan or evil. I don't know why a female gender was given to this. But I don't think it pertains to womenhood or take it personally :-D.

I hope this makes sense and I've answered some of your questions. However, I have to say you caught me right before nap time and I will check back in after it.

Donna
To read how the McDougall Program helped me reach my goals, go here:

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Re: Intelligence, Atheism, and Vegetarianism

Postby Gramma Jackie » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:52 pm

Mrs. Doodlepunk wrote:Am I being tested? :cool:

I was a bit simplistic about the Old Testament not applying to Christians today. Actually there were three sections of OT law; moral, civil and ceremonial. The moral law applies to us still, and was restated by Jesus and in other places in the New Testament. Civil laws were the ones God gave the Israelites because he was their God, intended as their code of law for their society. The ceremonial laws were about worship and they were fulfilled by Jesus. So the civil and ceremonial laws (about things like circumcision and what we can and can't eat) don't apply to NT Christians.

Sure, the 10 Commandments aren't really just suggestions, so we try our best to follow those rules. They are part of the Law that shows us our sin and then the Gospel shows us salvation.

It's also mentioned in Scripture that all of this is foolishness to an unbeliever.


I FINALLY was able to log on to this board after losing my PW and having a difficult time getting on.
Anyway, I would like to ask you Mrs. Doodlepunk where I can find the scripture reference that says God's law is divided between moral, ceremonial and civil. Thanks.
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Re: Intelligence, Atheism, and Vegetarianism

Postby Mrs. Doodlepunk » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:28 pm

Gramma Jackie wrote:Anyway, I would like to ask you Mrs. Doodlepunk where I can find the scripture reference that says God's law is divided between moral, ceremonial and civil. Thanks.


I believe it's in the book of Hebrews in the New Testament? I will find it and if it's different will let you know.
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