Dr. McDougall's Health & Medical Center
It is currently Sun May 19, 2013 7:22 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Evolution or Creation
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 6:37 pm
Posts: 198
f1jim wrote:
Morality has no meaning without people. Morality only has meaning when more than one person is around and only when more than one person connects in some way. It's easy to see how people developed morality as a means of surviving with each other. You do not need a supreme being to explain morality or kindness for that matter. These are survival skills sharply honed by interaction with others. I don't take a position on supreme beings and I am open to whatever the reality of life is but it's easy to see how morality can be looked at as something given out or something developed within. Whether there is a god or not, if there is he went through a lot of trouble to make it seem that the universe is quite old and that we were here a very long time. If he did and has his reasons for that I guess in time I will learn why. Till then I am happy watching things unfold.
I am quite happy living in a time where I am not going to be stoned or strung up because I believe that planets revolve around the sun. There were times in mans history where you were not considered worth the dust you walked on if you believed otherwise. Heresy covered a lot of ground and it varied tremendously by the times you were living in. While opinions always varied, what people believed Christianity taught about creation, the universe, slavery, sin, and most everything else has been batted about with one side or another taking the lead during our history. Winners write history and losers are left to the scrap bin of history. This will be true 100 years from now just as it was 100 years ago. How we interact with each other, who and how many we marry can change quickly in a historical sense. I find that it helps to look at most things from a historical viewpoint.
Perhaps this helps us decide what to eat for dinner tonight, perhaps not. This is a set of forums designed to better help people adopt this way of eating. Fighting over religion or lack therof does not. This particular forum is designed to help those that want to link this way of eating to there beliefs. Please do. If you want to fight about whether there is a god or not please don't do it here. There are hundreds of forums that welcome such debate. All we want here is how to get better at McDougaling through any particular religious beliefs you may have. If you don't have any it's probably best to not fight with those that do. It doesn't help anyone get anywhere. This program works whether you believe in a higher power or not. If that belief strengthens your resolve, wonderful. If not believing makes it all better, superb. Fighting makes no one any happier. What's for dinner?
f1jim


I disagree on some points but as you said, "This is a set of forums designed to better help people adopt this way of eating. Fighting over religion or lack therof does not. This particular forum is designed to help those that want to link this way of eating to there beliefs. Please do. If you want to fight about whether there is a god or not please don't do it here. There are hundreds of forums that welcome such debate. All we want here is how to get better at McDougaling through any particular religious beliefs you may have."


I must comment on Knut in regards to this. "But then... whatever God says goes. So if God had decreed that adultery was permissible, then adultery would be permissible... and so on..."

God could not decree it to be permissible because it goes against His very nature. Why is adultery wrong? Because God is faithful. Why is it wrong to lie? Because God is not a liar. Why is it wrong to steal? Because God is not a theif. (plus He owns everything, right? :lol: ) I hope that gives you a better understanding.

Just wanted you to know. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Evolution or Creation
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:46 pm
Posts: 322
BenFTW wrote:
God could not decree it to be permissible because it goes against His very nature.


With all due respect... the concept of God goes against his/her stated nature on a regular basis. There is simply no end to the logical inconsistencies and rampant incoherencies contained within the Bible... which of themselves does not impact that such a deity exists. Just that he/she does not comport within the Biblical paradigm. If you'd like to discuss it further perhaps you should PM or e-mail me... though the chance of this ever being resolved lies somewhere between slim and none... Have a great day...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Evolution or Creation
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:45 am
Posts: 1395
One man's fight is another man's discussion is another man's debate is another man's gluten intolerance. God created gluten in his own image, and it was all good!

Knut wins.

What's for dinner? What's for dinner? What's for dinner? Do I really have to think about that again? Already? Didn't I do that yesterday...and the day before and the day before and the day before and the...? Ugh. Calgon! Come hither!

Heh.

Devolve is a cool word, by the way. I pretty much live there when I'm not somewhere else.

8)

_________________
You don't have to wait to be happy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Evolution or Creation
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 6:37 pm
Posts: 198
Knut wrote:
BenFTW wrote:
God could not decree it to be permissible because it goes against His very nature.


With all due respect... the concept of God goes against his/her stated nature on a regular basis. There is simply no end to the logical inconsistencies and rampant incoherencies contained within the Bible... which of themselves does not impact that such a deity exists. Just that he/she does not comport within the Biblical paradigm. If you'd like to discuss it further perhaps you should PM or e-mail me... though the chance of this ever being resolved lies somewhere between slim and none... Have a great day...



I don't think thats neccessary as a simple google of any "contradiction" will easily lead to a Christian site showing you its most likely out of context. (as it seems to be when people like to quote them)

AlwaysAgnes - "Knut wins."

I didn't know we were playing a game. If we were, we need a better judge than you. :lol: Kidding. :P


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Evolution or Creation
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:48 pm 
As we used to say, all this is about as relevant as the price of tea in China. Oh wait, that would be relevant to this board, if you live in China or drink imported tea. :D


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Evolution or Creation
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:18 am
Posts: 3995
Location: China
Gramma Jackie wrote:
As we used to say, all this is about as relevant as the price of tea in China. Oh wait, that would be relevant to this board, if you live in China or drink imported tea. :D


For me, Gramma, the price of green tea in China is relevant! :nod:

_________________
pinkrose
Our slideshow: http://www.flickr.com/photos/zhong_pu/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Evolution or Creation
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:45 am
Posts: 1395
pinkrose wrote:
Gramma Jackie wrote:
As we used to say, all this is about as relevant as the price of tea in China. Oh wait, that would be relevant to this board, if you live in China or drink imported tea. :D


For me, Gramma, the price of green tea in China is relevant! :nod:




I don't really like green tea, but I watched Ip Man on Netflix last night.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwDzcE3m ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRNDQ8TB ... re=related

Pretty good movie.

Western philosophy = Might makes right
Eastern philosophy = Personal integrity; dignity is essential to all

My mind may have been manipulated by the West, but my heart belongs to the East.

http://sanctuarypublications.com/articl ... _1001.html

http://www.healthy.net/Health/Article/T ... thers/2363

Everyday life, which of course includes diet and lifestyle, is effected by one's personal philosophy and worldview. Beliefs about creation and/or evolution are an integral part of one's personal philosophy and worldview. What is "relevant" is...

everything and nothing.

When one's heart belongs to the East, being told to "debate" the unknown using only Western logic is like trying to play Monopoly on a Scrabble board with Pick-Up Sticks. There's only one rule, and its golden: Try to leave your opponents with their diginity, no matter how ridiculous you all look. And, if at first you don't succeed...

:mrgreen:

_________________
You don't have to wait to be happy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Evolution or Creation
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:55 pm 
pinkrose wrote:
Gramma Jackie wrote:
As we used to say, all this is about as relevant as the price of tea in China. Oh wait, that would be relevant to this board, if you live in China or drink imported tea. :D


For me, Gramma, the price of green tea in China is relevant! :nod:


I knew you were gonna say that. :D


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Evolution or Creation
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:48 pm
Posts: 434
Location: London
AlwaysAgnes wrote:
jaysmetalart wrote:
Do you believe we humans were created by Ape's?, or do you believe we were created by God?...I asked my daughter this question, I already knew she believes in creation, because my wife and I taught her bible doctrine. but she told me something that I thought was interesting. She said it takes more faith to believe in the whole evolution concept, then to believe in God.....What do you think?....Jay



I think this paragraph makes me crazy, especially the first sentence. I keep getting images of Young Frankenstein meets Planet of the Apes. Obviously I've seen too many movies. Have you ever heard of Hanuman?
http://history-of-hinduism.blogspot.com ... y-god.html

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_o ... _the_world

Have you seen Mel Gibson's Apocalypto? Now, there's a movie.

Yes, I can be weird and annoying, but that doesn't mean I was created by a monkey or God or even a monkey god.

Does it?

What does "the whole evolution concept" mean, anyway?


It makes me crazy too Agnes mainly because of the apostrophe abuse :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry I know that's rude but as this is the no holds barred forum I'll either go to hell or I won't

:nod:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Evolution or Creation
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 11:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:47 pm
Posts: 818
BenFTW wrote:
The story of evolution leaves no room for a supernatural Creator.
Really? I know many believers who have no problem with evolution.

Evolution is a fact. Species evolve and adapt. There is too much proof of this to dispute intelligently.

But that doesn't prove that all life forms on earth evolved from lower life forms, nor does it adequately explain the origins of life to start with. Not in my mind. Not in many people's minds.

There is sufficient evidence in scripture to suggest that it may not have been six literal days talked about in the creation account. Does it matter? Not to me.

I believe in God. I believe he is the creator of all that we know and all that we don't know know. Whether he created it all in six literal 24 hour days or in six very long ages, or whether he created all that we know through a process of evolution... these things do not matter to me. If someone discovered all of the "missing links" needed to prove all life evolved from a common source, it wouldn't shake my belief that God was the author of it all.

BenFTW wrote:
Evolution doesn't fit in a Christian world view and anyone holding to such a view is compromising their faith. As Robert Green Ingersoll said, the person you quoted, are christians just going to keep changing their view with what science says? When you take science as the authority over scripture you are putting God on trial. If you can't take the Bible as the Word of God then your faith has no foundation.
Thankfully my faith is founded on something firmer than your opinion of it. As for Christians changing their view because of science... hehe... you don't happen to still believe the world is flat, do you? Science changed most religious objections to that belief. Or do you still hold out?

My God is big enough to withstand any trial we may put him on. The problem isn't that we're putting God on trial... but our understanding of God. God can take care of himself, but our egos are much easier bruised and much more in need of defending.

The day I can't change my understanding of God's word to bring myself closer in line with His Reality is the day I cease growing spiritually.

-Norm

_________________
Follow my blog at: Three Hundred Pounds Of Joy!

Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Evolution or Creation
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:30 am
Posts: 2618
There was an interesting discussion of the different types of Creationism on the Skeptiod podcast a few years back. As can be seen in the following list of Creationist 'subclasses' it is certainly possible to accept the true age of the earth and evolution and still be a Christian.

"Theistic Evolution: This is the Catholic Pope's officially stated position, and it's embraced by many real scientists of faith. Theistic evolution accepts both the geologic and biologic records, including modern evolutionary synthesis, and posits that these are simply the tools God chose to create the natural world. Theistic evolution allows and embraces scientific research and permits the acceptance of new information.

Evolutionary Creationism: also accepts the geologic and biologic records, and makes its creationist distinction in that there were a literal Adam and Eve who were simply the first spiritually aware humans, though they came into being in the same way as all early humans.

Progressive Creationism: goes one step farther. Progressive Creationism accepts the geologic record, and much of the prehistoric biologic record, including the true age of dinosaurs and other early lifeforms, but believes that the creation of humans and perhaps other modern animals was a special creationism event as literally depicted in Genesis. Thus, there can be no biological link between humans and early hominids from the fossil record.

Day-Age Creationism: is the belief that the six days of creation were really six geological epochs. Usually some effort is made to reconcile specific days in Genesis to specific epochs in Earth history, but since things didn't really all happen separately and consecutively like in Genesis, such efforts are generally somewhat ham-handed. But at least they're trying. Day-Age Creationism is what Jehovah's Witnesses advocate in their Watchtower pamphlets.

Gap Creationism: is about as far as the Old Earth model can be stretched. This model attempts to unify the true age of the Earth as measured by science with the literal Biblical account. Jimmy Swaggart advocates this model. Gap Creationism states that the first verse of the Bible, God created the heavens and the Earth, was followed by a "gap" of 4.5 billion years, during which time not much happened. And then, the literal creation of Genesis took place in six days about six to ten thousand years ago. Necessarily, this model has to abandon evolution completely, although it adheres to proper geology.
Now we move to the other half of creationist models, the Young Earth Creationism. Here we are forced to completely abandon reason and rationality. There are really only two main camps, and as you can see, they are completely at odds with one another, agreeing only on a single point: That the Earth did not exist ten thousand years ago.

Omphalism: This is named after the 1857 book Omphalos, published two years before Darwin's Origin of Species, which explained that the fossil record was God's way of making the Earth appear to be old. Omphalos is Greek for navel, and the Omphalists believe that Adam and Eve were created with navels, thus having the appearance of being created through normal evolutionary biology. Adherents to Omphalism fully accept every scientific measurement of the age of the Earth and every discovery of modern biology, with the important exception that all such discoveries are wrong: God only wanted to make us think that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, and that life evolved from lower forms. A true scientist doing real research can be an Omphalist. He will arrive at the correct conclusions, though he will believe that his measurement is merely what God wants him to see.

Modern Young Earth Fundamentalism: Modern Young Earthers, for lack of a better name, are the ones behind the Creation Museum discussed earlier. They honestly believe in alternate versions of virtually every science known, throwing away every shred of modern science that doesn't point to the age of the Earth as 6,000 years. They literally believe in Adam and Eve (without navels) and all the dinosaurs on Day 1, fossilization taking only a few hundred years, and all major geologic features having been created in a few days in Noah's Flood. They reject evolution, cosmology, geology, and every science that supports them; which, by extension, eventually includes every scientific discipline. However, in their minds, they don't reject them at all; they fully embrace completely wrong, misinterpreted, misunderstood, and misrepresented versions of them. Their worldview is based absolutely on the Bible as a perfect, unerring, literal historical account. As a followup, they have invented their own versions of natural sciences that they pretend supports this view. It is not possible to be a thoroughly researched Young Earther and still retain any grasp on rationality. This is the group making the overwhelming majority of noise in the media and modern culture, but it's not clear how large of a group this really is. They have the largest and loudest web presence, with AnswersInGenesis.org and the Discovery Institute, though out of 3.2 million Ph.D.'s worldwide they've only been able to find 700 who agree with their science, according to their list maintained at DissentFromDarwin.org. This represents 2% of 1% of people with advanced academic degrees."

The entire podcast is well worth a listen and is available for free at www.skeptiod.com

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4082

Kate

_________________
This diet can save your life - it saved mine! Read my story at:
http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/cathy_stewart.htm

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Evolution or Creation
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 6:37 pm
Posts: 198
To anyone quoting me: I already stopped with this conversation due to F1jim's request, so stop discussing what I brought up (or giving me "rebuttals").

A simple reply to all, believe what you want to believe.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Evolution or Creation
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 5:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:45 pm
Posts: 5850
Location: Pacifica, CA
A show of hands from all those that think they can convince a believer no longer believe by a post here. Another show of hands for believers that are convinced their post will change the mind of an atheist.
Hmm, dead silence. No one is changing anyones mind about their religious beliefs in this thread and there is zero content about diet and nutrition. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Let's let this thread die....again!
f1jim

_________________
While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at http://www.drmcdougall.com/star.html Scroll to James Brown


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Evolution or Creation
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 4:10 pm
Posts: 256
Location: East Central Illinois
I agree, f1jim! This forum has no connection with this WOE. It was started out in good faith but has just been a venue of disagreements. We all believe in our own "Higher Power" in our own way. This is supposed to be a place of growth and encouragement along the McDougall path toward health but has diverted off that path. I possibly check in here every 2 months only to be disappointed with the content. Evidently most others feel the same way as the additional comments are few. Why not remove the forum of disagreements and concentrate on gathering all the help for us toward good health and life in all the other forums? These are just my feelings and thoughts and not meant to sway anyone in any way. I just don't receive any help on this forum to further my growth in living as a vegan.

Sincerely,
Shirley


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Evolution or Creation
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:45 pm
Posts: 5850
Location: Pacifica, CA
I have mixed emotions about this board. I'll state them up front.
Our way of eating works for everyone, religious or not. The board was started because several believers wanted a place they could support this way of eating while sharing a common thread of belief. I thought it might get messy but agreed to go to bat for them in getting the board. Dr. McDougall granted that request and the board was born.
We now have an egg vs chicken battle about why the arguments happen. Much of the posting is done by those that need to justify their non-belief. Many comments from believers provoke these responses.
The easy thing to do is to remove the board till the next wave of believers request a religious forum. Easy isn't always right. The answer is to return the board to it's rightful purpose and stop the snipping from both sides. Non-believers should let those that do believe have their place to promote this way of eating through their common beliefs. Believers should not make statements belittling non-believers for their position. Proper etiquette by all will keep the board running smoothly. I'm for seeing if the board can go back to fulfilling it's mission. I'm going to be more aggressive about monitoring content till everyone gets the message. If that isn't enough we can scuttle the board.
That's my take. Post on but watch it!
f1jim

_________________
While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at http://www.drmcdougall.com/star.html Scroll to James Brown


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group