Discussion Board

When I use to compost I didn't have a clue and just threw stuff out in it. Now I'm trying to do it the right way but I seem to be failing.

First off I got this compost bin from Costco, and it came with a concentrated compost starter. So all summer I put in greens and periodically spray with starter and pitch fork around. Then this fall I added leaves and mixed in and sprayed with starter. I read it needs to have some moisture so periodically I've sprayed it down, but maybe not often enough. I never sprayed my old compost pile, nor did I use a starter.

Nothing seems to be breaking down. It's in sun, afternoon not a hot sun either. Is that the problem? Is it because it's dry? I've used all the started too, with the leaves I was really pouring it on and mixing.

What's the temperature where you are? It may be too cold right now for the microbes to work.

What sort of bin is it, closed or open? Anyway, you are likely right that it's too dry; in general that's usually the problem. My first fall in Nebraska I put my kitchen scraps in a wire bin, in a windy location over the winter and the next spring I discovered that everything was "freeze-dried." Everything looked perfect, no sign of decay at all!!! The stuff needed more protection from wind, more moisture, lots more more carbon/leaves, and more time.

How big is the pile? Height x width x depth... usually a compost pile has to get to a certain amount of mass before it can "cook." I guess if it's too small it can loose heat too quickly, also it can dry out too quickly.

Most of the articles I've read indicate 3 feet x 3 feet x 3 feet as the minimum size needed for an open bin; a closed bin can be smaller because it holds in more heat and moisture.

p.s. Along with more moisture and more leaves, a couple shovels-full of dirt will help, by introducing the microbes that like to chew on plant debris.

oh Anne thank you so much. Wow did I just learn a bunch. The bin is closed (with air slats) and a lid that doesn't fit the best. So I bet during the summer it was drying out. Of course, now it's freezing and the top blew off.

I hadn't even thought of the size of the pile. Luckily I do have it next to a building, but it's not a building with heat. So this bin is probably 3X3 square, maybe smaller, but I only got it filled maybe a couple feet. So I bet it isn't heating up. Blasted. It may take me a couple years to get it filled and get it to work.

I love the dirt idea. I hadn't thought of that either. It's starting to fall apart (cheap construction) so when it warms I think I'll take it apart and try to sturdy it. and then put the matter back in.

Darn you were more info than the flyer that came with it. My old compost pile was just heaped between trees.

I have three large bins (4x4x4) with wood slats & air spaces, no lids. They sit behind some tall bushes to protect them from wind and give them some summer shade.

The real 'pile-building' takes place in the fall. During the summer, we keep throwing our kitchen scraps into one of the piles but they don't decompose very much. It's basically just temporary storage.

Once the leaves come down in the fall, we drive into town and pick up many bags of leaves that people helpfully collect for us. (!) Then we start with one of our empty bins, and layer some leaves in, then some of the 'wet' gunk we've been collecting, then some grass clippings, then more leaves--some dirt or already finished compost sprinkled in too. I moisten each layer with the garden hose as we go. Many people "mulch" their leaves with a lawn mower so I like using those that are cut up so nicely, I think they decompose better, but if we just have whole leaves we throw them in too. On the very top we put a thick layer of leaves, that's our insulation. That's it--we don't do any more turning, or watering.

The next spring, about 6 months later, I remove the top layer of stuff and put it into an empty bin (the top usually doesn't decompose). What's underneath is generally composted enough to use in the garden, though I do sift it a bit. Anything that isn't decomposed I just throw into the new bin for next year.

Sometimes in the spring we have a lot of stuff (weeds, scraps) in the holding bins so in May after I've used up all the "good" compost my husband will come out and turn over all the new stuff from the collection bin into the newly emptied bin, layering it with leaves. That stuff might get turned over again and layered in the coming fall. So you see, some of our compost has been cooking a whole year, some of it for just six months. But in either case, I don't work at it, I just let it cook.

My system is therefore a relatively "passive" system but I have plenty of space for this plus the appearance isn't too important. People who have limited space or need to keep it tidy looking for the neighborhood generally like to do more "active" piles which they turn more frequently to speed up the cooking process. It sounds like that's what you had in mind--but I think perhaps you needed a larger volume of material and more moisture, possibly more leaves, to get the momentum going.

I have read that most people don't have enough carbon/dry matter/leaves in their piles. You can think of the green matter (vegetable scraps, weeds, grass clippings) that is high in nitrogen as the "spark" that starts your compost cooking but the brown matter (leaves, also shredded paper) that is high in carbon is the actual fuel. In general you need a lot more brown stuff (fuel) than green stuff (nitrogen), I forget what the ratio is supposed to be but it's something like 3 or 4 times the volume of brown stuff to green. My husband shredded some old files last year and we added those paper shreds to the compost--they disappeared just fine. Like leaves, you don't want to get this too thick but interlayer it with some of the green stuff.

Probably the 'starter' they gave you didn't hurt anything but I wouldn't spend money on something like that for the future. You should be able to rustle up plenty of free stuff to put in your pile. You might want to collect some materials and then layer & moisten them all on one day, as I was describing we do, to get enough mass to start the cooking. Then you can mix or turn it again later to keep it cooking, as much as you wish to. Some people turn a compost pile as much as three times in a season--it's a matter of preference.

In my opinion there are plenty of different ways to manage a compost pile but in the end it will always work, due to the second Law of Thermodynamics! Things tend to decay. Just not necessarily on the schedule you want it to! But you will get the hang of how to encourage it.

I do have to keep things tidy as I am in a neighborhood. It took me years to convince my Mother we should have a garden. Now she's loving it.

I mixed throughout the year, but yes, like you mentioned the brown came in the fall time, and the green went down throughout the summer. I am sure me and my pitch fork didn't get it all mixed nicely even though I did try.

I have a source for shredded paper. I didn't even think of that. That would help this summer to mix in with the green.

With it being new maybe I'm just not giving it time. My previous compost was fueled with aged horse manure so that probably helped it along. Next year I'll start collecting leaves from the neighbors

Anna,
thanks I learned a lot about composting from your post. My compost bin (in an urban setting) has never gotten going, and now I understand why. I have two questions: what are the vegetable scraps you DON'T throw in - because when I am actively doing this, skunks begin to frequent our yard (and I worry about rats...yes, it's that urban). My second question is about the shredded paper, which all has ink on it - is that ink OK to put (once paper decomposes) into the garden?
Thanks in advance.

I learned last summer no nightshade's should go into the compost. I didn't know that and let a bunch of tomatoes fall the year before. So no tomatoes, peppers, eggplants.

I know personally I also keep up any of the high pesticide foods if they are not organic. I may be over protective though.

Wasn't Anna a huge help. I learned more from her than all the reading in my gardening book and the flyer that came with it taught me.

Yomom--About what to put in compost--DO put in any raw fruit and vegetable scraps such as peelings; also coffee grounds and tea leaves are okay. And of course weeds and plant debris from the yard and garden. (you might want to avoid putting in weeds which have gone to seed, as well as any weeds that are vining and multiply via root pieces, like bindweed.)
DO NOT put in anything cooked, or any grains such as rice, bread, and obviously no meat or animal foods of any kind. I assume you are a McDougaller so the animal foods are not an issue but remember that grains/wheat/breads are the natural food for mice and you don't want those in your compost.
Faith mentioned keeping nightshades out--that may be just out of caution over the 'late blight' organism that everybody was having trouble with this past year. We didn't have this problem here and I always include all my nightshade plants in my compost; so far no problem with that. They do say that if you have an identifiable plant disease you should wrap those plants and put them in the garbage rather than in the compost--that sort of makes sense to me.

If your compost burns "hot", ie, heats up quickly and decomposes thoroughly, in theory though the disease organisms get destroyed. My compost, as I was explaining before, is more of a passive, slow burn so much of it may not get hot enough to kill diseases, according to theory, but I'm happy with my compost.
Nature doesn't always follow the "rules."

ABOUT SKUNKS--I'm not sure what they are attracted to. Do you know if they are actually rummaging in your compost? I'd be surprised, if so. It may be, they are just coming to your yard for other reasons. If there are garbage cans, or pet food they can smell in the neighborhood typically I think they go for those, and also places they can live like under porches. (They eat rodents and insects so they're not ALL bad, LOL) I would ask your city or community gov't for advice on skunks. Perhaps they can be trapped and removed. Here we have County Extension offices that give advice on everything from gardening to composting to pest management--whatever your Ontario equivalent of that is might be the place to start.

Faith--I have read that if the pesticides were used legally, the remains on the fruit peelings will dissipate in the compost and not pollute it. However, that sounds nice but I have no idea if it's true. Hard to trust anybody these days so I don't blame you for being cautious. In my case, the volume of organic matter is HUGE compared to the occasional avocado peel, etc. so I don't worry about it. In a smaller scale garden it might be sensible to be more particular. Peace of mind, anyway!

Oh, I'm glad if this was helpful, thanks! For many years gardening was my main source of entertainment and when I wasn't out there doing it I'd be indoors reading about it! I absorbed a lot of information over the years of reading garden books. The thing is though, as I said, out in the garden sometimes the book rules don't apply.

Forgot about your INK question!
Years ago, the general advice was that black ink was biodegradable but that colored inks contained toxic chemicals. However I think that has improved rather dramatically in recent years and many colored inks are now also made with less toxic ingredients such as soy, etc. However I am not sure about that and each case may be different.

Most of the papers we shred are things like old bills, printed material, etc. that are mostly white paper with black ink. My understanding is that most newspaper printing nowadays is soy ink, and a lot of commercial printing is soy-based. (personal home printers may be using petroleum-based ink) It would be interesting to get some more concrete information about this but I am assuming it's okay.

In the early spring I mulch some of my garden pathways with thick layers of newspaper, which I get from a friend. I used to carefully remove the color inserts, but now the main newspaper has color ink in it anyway, so I no longer bother. These newspapers aren't really coming into contact with my plants, though they are between the raised beds. I suppose strictly speaking I could be introducing pollutants into the ground there. Or maybe not. I don't know for sure. I don't think it affects my crops either way.

Anna
thanks so much for your comphrehensive answers and explanations. That's very helpful.

Okay, I nominate Anna for the position of master gardener! Way to go girl! I haven't much to add, except to say that my compost heap was passive in nature as well. In dry seasons, I did make sure I let the sprinkler hit it when I was doing the part of the garden closest to it. But like Anna's most of mine came in the autumn, with leaf drop and garden clean up. We had a leaf shredder and as a result almost the entire drop of maple leaves fit in the two 3x3x3 bins. I layered with green materials cleaned from the yard, flower pots, spent plants, but not grass, as we had a weedy lawn and a mulching mower, and nothing diseased. Dill plants were great, as they were tall and their addition guaranteed some air space, which is also necessary for proper odorless decomposition. And yes, an occasional shovelful of soil from the garden itself for microorganisms.

Plumerias--you are right to bring up "air" as one of the important components of compost. We put in a lot of stalks in our compost, too, which helps create air spaces and airflow.

After this conversation, I was thinking of another way to explain composting--it is like growing a garden of microbes. (Worms, dung beetles and other insects also, but the main population is the microbes.) You nurture it in a very similar way that you nurture the plants you are growing in your garden.

So if you think about "growing microbes" as your task, understanding the process is easier--they need food to eat, and lots of it. They need some moisture, enough to support life but not too much or they'll drown. They need air, so they don't suffocate, but not so much that they just dry out. They need a certain temperature range to flourish--too hot and they die off; too cold and they hibernate.

If you were growing a plant in a pot, you might give it some afternoon shade in the summer so it doesn't bake, but enough sun exposure so it can grow. Same with the compost! Mid-summer blasting heat will harm your microbe garden, but a certain amount of heat will help it. Aerating it, or turning the compost, may help by getting more oxygen to the microbes and mixing more food and moisture in for them. However they do need a chance to quietly do their work, also. Have you ever seen a plant killed with kindness? This sometimes happens to houseplants--someone will water it too much or feed it too much and this can harm it as much as neglect will. I think the same thing is true of compost--the microbes have their natural growing cycle which you have to try to encourage, but you can't force them to grow.

So I think in nearly every situation, if you ask yourself "what is good for the microbes?", you will find a suitable answer. As I said before, there are many different ways make compost, not just one 'correct' way. When you look in nature, for example in the woods, you'll see that nature always succeeds in disposing of dead plant material. Microbes always win in the end! So it will be easier to accomplish this in an artificial situation if we try to mimic nature.

This has been interesting. I have thought about putting some worms in there. I usually stick them in the garden.

I wonder if what the compost container is made out of would bother it. Mine is plastic. It sounds like I'll be taking it apart each fall to add the leaves, since I don't have mutliple places to store the greens in the summer.

this is what we purchased last year. good concept but the design isn't the best. It keeps falling apart.
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?prodid=11332894&hierPath=50126*79323*79329*79330*&whse=BC&topnav=&Browse=&lang=en-US

Many, many people use these plastic containers for compost--I don't really see that the plastic itself could harm the process.

However, in looking at the picture I'm wondering if there's enough air flow? You might be able to tell better yourself than I can from the picture if it seems nicely ventilated. If not, you could potentially drill some more air holes, or you could leave a couple of the lower doors open, or you could even set the whole thing up a little bit with bricks or pieces of scrap lumber so air can get in underneath. I'm not saying I know for sure this is the way to do it, I'm just wondering, again, if those microbes might find it stifling in there.

Your idea of using it for "storage" of scraps and clippings until fall sounds perfectly reasonable. That's basically what we are doing, on a larger, messier scale.

Anna, you've provided some really great information about composting. Thanks for pulling it all together. We've been composting for about two years now, and it's really cool to see science at work! Thanks for giving us even deeper insight...

One amusing compost anecdote, if I may: Last season, our compost-prepared garden gave us an unexpected (and welcome) surprise when up from nowhere sprouted a butternut squash plant - apparently from the squash pulp we'd added to the compost pile the previous year! That thing yielded SIX huge, delicious butternut squashes! Total, joyful, surprise!