Discussion Board

Yes, as it explains my position on "Burden of Proof", which is a vital issue to understand when it comes to supplements.

In Health
Jeff

Oh right, I read that bit.

On an aside, interesting it is to note the effect of aerobic exercises on cognitive function ! Guess it's time for me to resume my skating !



I want to do nutrition and health the right way, and You have helped me make many crucial choices in the past, and this time as well A million thanks, Jeff.

One of the things you often hear people say is that they are going to take a supplement "just to be safe". Supplements are not necessarily safe. Here is a link to a well known and specific example of where supplements actually increased cancer risk:

http://www.cancer.gov/clinicaltrials/re ... -CARET1204

I discovered today this product is currently on sale at Vitacost.com for $4.48. It usually retails for about $9.50. And the Vitacost price has been $6.18 in the past.

Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion (Formerly Bioactive-B12) -- 1000 mcg - 30 Chewable Tablets Vitamin B12 (as methylcobalamin) 1000 mcg
16,667% Daily Value

Other Ingredients: Fructose, mannitol, cellulose, magnesium stearate and natural flavor.

Free Of : sucrose, salt, yeast, wheat, gluten, corn, soy, dairy products, artificial coloring

Of course, shipping must be considered, and some might be opposed to the "fillers and flavorings" (of which many chewable supplements contain). I usually wait until I have several items to order from Vitacost, and spread out the per-item shipping cost to somtimes only pennies per item.

Jeff,

After Nutrilite, I am now hearing "good" things about products from this company called 'Usana'. some of the arguments raised are actually quite interesting, so I wanted to consult you. their distributors make the following claims:

1. Not all supplements are useful. Infact, most of them are useless. In this book called "Comparative Guide to Nutritional Supplements" by Lyle Macwilliam (have you read it??), there is the description of a laboratory survey which attempts to rank top nutrition brands in the US and Canada. It is stated that about 50% of the available brands were rejected simply after a preliminary study, and even the remaining 50% had most of them scoring low on criteria such as potency, bioavailability, and some conditions of effectiveness. The point is that most of the research that shows nutrition supplements to be harmful or useless is true because the supplements that were selected for the study were really useless or harmful in terms of quality. so they fail to reflect the usefulness of supposedly good supplements like Usana ! (Usana gets a healthy 96% score in this book !)

2. Natural foods today are no longer very natural. They are mostly grown on soil that is exhausted of nutrients, and the produce is stored and shipped for long periods afterwards. And all this causes significant loss of nutrients before the cooking and washing, and eventual consumption.

3. Many of the studies showing supplements to be not helpful are funded by pharmaceutical companies who have an interest in seeing more people fall sick! Since the implied belief is that good supplements are actually helpful in keeping health, pharma companies fund studies that are designed to erroneously show all supplements to be useless and cause confusion.

I even learned of the following observation made by Russ Barton (MS, CNS, CISSN) at USANA Science Information Services: (please ignore the symbols on the left border. They are copied from my email text)

In response to the question: "Prof Colin Campbell, a famous biochemist/nutritionists, in his book "The China Study", advised against dietary supplementing, claiming that many past research studies on supplement proved that they don't work.

How would you counterbalance/reconcile with his remark?"


Dr. Barton: It is true that there are a number of
> research studies showing no or little benefit of certain nutritional
> supplements or ingredients. That is to be expected since that is how
> science works. Good science dictates that both positive and negative be
> found in the pursuit of the truth. But for every negative study there
> are numerous other studies showing positive effects and potential
> benefits. In a sense, it often comes down to a case of personal bias.
> Dr Campbell is a well known and respected researcher, but he still
> brings some fairly strong opinions and biases to the argument. If one
> were looking to disprove the benefits of supplements, there are plenty
> of studies and research to try and support that side of the argument.
> On the other hand, there are just as many, if not more, research papers
> indicating the importance of good quality nutritional supplementation.
> It would be hard to argue the benefit of vitamin D supplementation
> nowadays. There is overwhelming new research emerging showing
> widespread deficiencies among nearly all populations. And, could you
> really argue against calcium supplementation for many people, especially
> teens and the elderly? What about folic acid and B12 for women of child
> bearing age? The list could go on and on. Simply stating that
> supplements don't work or are of little benefit is very much an
> oversimplifcation. In our mind, there are many factors important to
> ensure the most optimal health, including a healthy, balanced diet,
> proper exercise and rest, and high quality nutritional supplementation.
> Making a general statement that supplements are not beneficial simply
> shows a bias and is overly simplistic.
>
> For examples of the benefits of nutritional supplementation, we would
> recommend that you visit the following link on our website that contains
> a large amount of published research. In addition, we send out an
> e-mail weekly called Essentials of Health that highlights currently
> research in human nutrition. This link on our website contains dozens
> of these articles that have been posted over the last year.
>
> http://www.usana.com/dotCom/company/science/hir"


So ... Jeff, I am in need of your advice again ... Are there studies or facts that specifically address the above issues? Has anyone done studies specificallly with Usana ? Other than the Usana people themselves !

Thanks so much for listening Jeff !
McB

1) Usana = Amway = MLM Company

2) My position remains the same.....

I do not recommend the general and/or random use of any supplement, supplements without informed consent, supplementation without a clearly established need that has been established in the context of a professional evaluation from a competent healthcare professional or any supplement that is sold through an MLM company or from the healthcare professional recommending them.

To better understand my position, it may be helpful to read the following link..

viewtopic.php?t=6735

And this new one from Dr Matt and Dr Alona

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Jeff-Novi ... 5564676818

In Health
Jeff

Jeff, thank you for your response and the link. I understand your view about proof of burden.

I see that you are keen to answer such doubts from the first principles, which is scientifically a sound approach I guess. However, it would still help to be able to present direct responses to the points, and i imagine that this is possible in the following ways:

a. By quoting specific research on this one brand. Is there any out there? I observe that researchers do not specify the brand of supplements they used, which is rather unhelpful. But they may be bound by certain laws or afraid of being sued, I do not know for sure.

b. Is there a study comparing the nutrition available in whole foods in various markets? I ask because soil quality, agricultural practises, storage and transportation times vary in different countries. The place I live in imports all its food, for example. We have no fields here, only Cold Storage. This is a major support point used by Usana people here.

On a slightly different note Jeff, I find the remark by Dr. Barton very interesting. How big a role do you think a researcher's personal insights into the subject that come from experience play in shaping their beliefs about nutrition?

And what about biases? Do you think there are people biased one way or the other about this for personal or professional reasons? (My head tells me this is a naive question, but I would like to hear about it from someone in the field)

Thanks Jeff !

McB

I am not sure you truly understand my view about the Burden of Proof as evidenced by your response.

The reason is, you are asking me to respond to the advertising and marketing comments of a supplement distributor who markets their products through an MLM system.

There are more red flags in that, then I can count.

I can not tell you how important it is to separate this kind of info from the true credible science.

The most important thing we can do is stop listening to them.

The response to most all your questions is covered in the "Burden of Proof" threads and in my responses to supplements and other threads including the issues of bias, soil quality and research bias. These are not the reasons why people are overweight, obese, sick and dying in America.



It is more than guessing.

This **IS** the most scientifically sound approach. If someone does not like this system, then they need to come up with a "better" system and not one based on a lower quality of evidence.

We do not recommend the use of supplements (let alone any particular brand, especially an MLM company) or recommend their spin on nutrition and health.

The article that I linked by Dr Matt and Dr Alona is very comprehensive and also addresses many of these issues.

If you have a specific question on a specific supplement and/or specific condition, I will be glad to address it and/or link you to the discussions.

Otherwise, my advice is to not waste your time listening to such companies and their marketing and advertising.

In Health
Jeff

"I am not sure you truly understand my view about the Burden of Proof as evidenced by your response."

Ok, I'll examine it more closely this time !

"Otherwise, my advice is to not waste your time listening to such companies and their marketing and advertising. "



Thanks!
McB

Jeff, please tell me if the following definition of RDA is accurate (I am guessing not):

"Some people assert that the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDAs) are yardsticks for safety that should not be exceeded. This is false. In fact, the RDAs (RNIs in Canada) were originally developed to help people avoid acute nutritional deficiencies such as scurvy, rickets and beri beri, now rarely seen in our modern world. In other words, they established the minimal, not the optimal, values of nutritional intake."


Thanks a million !
McB

It is not and show a complete misunderstanding of the history and current status of the RDA/DRI's.

It is an inaccurate statement often used by the supplement industry to justify taking in "more."

In Health
Jeff

Thanks Jeff. This is the definition used in the Lyle Macwilliam book which projects USANA as the best supplement.

I also learned that Lyle Macwilliam was himself associated with Usana for four years previously. There are plenty of reasons to doubt the objectiveness of this book. Knowing your uncomplicated stand against supplements, I was merely engaging in a scientific "debate" with some Usana people on this topic. If the book they lent me gets its definition of RDA wrong, I must really question the correctness of their overall and specific perspectives.

Thanks for all your help, Jeff

McB.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, you can not engage in a scientific debate with a MLM supplement company as science is not their motivator, sales is. They sound scientific because they are experts at making marketing and advertising sound like science.



Better yet, as recommended above, stay away from all supplement companies, especially those that function as MLM's.

For the record, many independent testing of supplements has been done and more often than not, some of the lowest priced, regularly available products that are sold at your supermarket, Walgreens/CVS and Costco/BJ's turn out to be the purest, safest and highest quality.

Stay away from these companies. They are not even worth debating.

In Health
Jeff

Alright .. thanks

Is something like Marmite also classified as a supplement? I use a a quarter spoon ful of it once a day with my meal ... just to give myself that "little extra" vitamins. Is that a good/safe practise?

McB

Not recommended. It is not necessary and it is very high in sodium.

However, lets approach this intelligently.

Are you under the impression that the program recommended here is inadequate?

If so, in what way is it inadequate?

If so, how would marmite help solve this problem?

In Health
Jeff