Nasoya Fat Free mayo

[raw curls]

I agree with a lot that is being written here.

I have to say I felt very "beat up" from feedback commentary in my journal, that I ended up having a moderator delete it. I was in fact following McDougall's guidelines, pertaining to fat intake, I had less fat in 3 days than I would have had in an entire meal before starting the program.

This may not be the right place to write this, but some of the comments made in this thread have hit home with me.

Please be gentle with those coming aboard who are following McDougall's guidelines. So what if they are using the fat free mayonnaise - in my case it was in a McDougall *approved* recipe. there is no need to pick people's diets apart here, to the point of being obnoxious. Support is what people really need, not the negativity.

[ncyg46]

I agree with a lot that is being written here.

I have to say I felt very "beat up" from feedback commentary in my journal, that I ended up having a moderator delete it. I was in fact following McDougall's guidelines, pertaining to fat intake, I had less fat in 3 days than I would have had in an entire meal before starting the program.

So what if they are using the fat free mayonnaise - in my case it was in a McDougall *approved* recipe. there is no need to pick people's diets apart here, to the point of being obnoxious. Support is what people really need, not the negativity.

I am still using it and will continue to use it because Ed likes the potato salad, and some of the chickpea spreads in the cookbooks that use it that I make from Mary's recipes and I would rather use that than have him go buy the crud at Walmart or any of the other supermarkets.

I also agree with Raw Curls....it is getting so complicated to read a recipe and try to decide if it really is okay or not...depending on who's opinion we read. I have tried the Snap recipes, but for two people if you open three cans or bags of anything you wind up with way too much food to store for two people with only one eating this way...in an rv!

[JeffN]

I am sorry for any inappropriate situation anyone has experienced in another forum.

The purpose of this forum is to help support people on their endeavors to better health through the McDougall program from my perspective.

However, no one has ever been beat up here or criticized here including the few trolls and detractors who have shown up here and I have given them as much right to post as anyone else, as long as they remained civil and have always been civil to them. No one's posts have been deleted in this forum, including those of the trolls, except for one recent very rude and unruly person who showed up, and I was also civil to them. If you have a problem in this forum, please PM your concerns and comments and it will be addressed.

In addition, I do not pick apart peoples diet here or tell them what to do or what to eat nor has anyone ever been treated "obnoxiously" here by me. However, people do post here asking for my professional comments and opinions including on their diet, their recipes and different food products and so, when asked, I do respond, but never in an inappropriate way.

Since January 2007, at the request of Dr McDougall, my guidelines for reading labels have been taught at all the McDougall programs and all attendees are given a handout with a detailed explanation of them. In addition, they are now being taught and implemented at several Whole Foods Stores/Regions to be then taught by their Team Leaders to the customers. They are they guidelines you will also receive if you go through the January 2010 10-Day program.

People ask my opinion and input all the time. No one is obligated to follow it. Same with Dr McDougall. There are many l/t hard core McDougallers who do not follow his recommendations 100%, and as I observe in the other forums, and at the programs, it seems like there is quite a bit of confusion (and debate) amongst many followers over what they are exactly.

However, this is not a bad thing if you understand why it is so.

In regard to confusion, we have to remember 3 important things,

First, there is no one McDougall program no matter what is printed in any one book. The principles and guidelines are always and have always been adapted to meet the needs of the individual. In fact, at a 10-Day program, you may find two people sitting at the same table for lunch eating different items based on different recommendations they have been given by Dr McDougall and/or the McDougall staff.

Second, People often get confused because they read or hear about recommendations that have been made for a specific individual and this persons specific health issues, and they may not apply to everyone or anyone else and so may appear in conflict with the recommendations someone else has received. This is true even of the information Dr McDougall gives out himself. There are many people in these forums who are his patient and have received different recommendations even with similar lab results because of differing health/medical issues and/or medical/health histories.

Third, my guidelines are guidelines to help people make better choices, and are not commandments carved in stone. As I teach in the class, it is often difficult to find products that meet all my guidelines. However, in such situations, people can choose the products that are the closest as they move in the direction of getting healthier. This is the same recommendations that are posted here in this forum.
All of us are on the path to better health and while the principles and guidelines will never change, the application to each individual may.

Remember, nutrition is an art and a science. The research studies and data is the science. How we interpret it and apply it to an individual (or ourselves) is the art.

In Health
Jeff

[Dechen]

I am a newbie but I feel I need to give my 5 pennies worth on this.

I understand, and did so from the start, Dr McDoughall's Diet to be a kind of Base Camp, guidelines rather than an absolute, a place to start but movable to what each person needs. I think that shows up well in the Star McDoughallers.
The diet was adapted to their needs and that, plus perseverance, is what ultimately brought results. I live in the UK and can not get some stuff so I get the closest thing to it. I do not think of it as cheating or falling short of some standard.

PS: Jeff...I hope Sheila is doing well I love her in your videos.

[raw curls]

Hi Jeff - yes this was in another forum on here, in the journaling area. Not in any of your threads. You never made any inappropriate or obnoxious comments, sorry for the confusion.

[SactoBob]

I'm confused that it would call for "fat free" mayonnaise if all mayo is going to have some fat in it.

Does anyone understand this?

That is an excellent question, and the answer is that Jeff understands this. Also, anybody who has seen his dvd or live presentation on reading food labels. I really recommend that dvd, because without that understanding, it is easily possible to be mistaken about products such as is being discussed here.

The reason I brought this product up in the other thread is because it seemed that some people were suggesting using this product freely because it is zero fat. In fact, it is not even close to zero fat. That is not to say that it cannot be used by anybody as a condiment. But people without the understanding of food labels (like I was before Jeff's dvd) will think that it can be used freely when it cannot, and when some people would best avoid it completely.

I know from Dr. Esselstyn's book that one of the main problems he had with his patients was when when they thought that they could be consuming a lot of so called and so labeled "zero fat" products. Many of these taste too good to be true and that is exactly correct because they are in fact high fat. I don't think people have a good chance of success without the understanding of the labels as presented by Jeff in his dvd.

I also have a question for Jeff as to how certain products are approved on these lists. It seems to me that from the label, it cannot be determined how much fat is in the product. Should there be some cautions or caveats on that list?

I know that I previously failed on the McDougall program by doing exactly what Jeff has talked about - not understanding the difference between foods that could be eaten freely and those which could be used in small amounts with caution and understanding that they are not optimal. In my case, I needed and still need optimal, or close to it.

[JeffN]

I am a newbie but I feel I need to give my 5 pennies worth on this.

I understand, and did so from the start, Dr McDoughall's Diet to be a kind of Base Camp, guidelines rather than an absolute, a place to start but movable to what each person needs. I think that shows up well in the Star McDoughallers.
The diet was adapted to their needs and that, plus perseverance, is what ultimately brought results.

Correct and thank you for your astute observations.

Burgess is a fine example of this. He is a star McDougaller and has been highly successful over a long period of time. Yet, his diet is very restrictive and most of the products listed on those approved sheets would severly compromise his health.

I live in the UK and can not get some stuff so I get the closest thing to it. I do not think of it as cheating or falling short of some standard.

Correct. Again, it is important to realize that my recommendations for Labels are "guidelines" to help people make better choices and not commandments carved in stone.

While I wish I had a cookie-cutter model that would work on every product every time, and for every person in every situation, there is no such thing.

PS: Jeff...I hope Sheila is doing well I love her in your videos.

Thanks. We just spend Thanksgiving with her and this past weekend. She is doing great and we hope to do more video's soon.

In Health
Jeff

[JeffN]

Hi Jeff - yes this was in another forum on here, in the journaling area. Not in any of your threads. You never made any inappropriate or obnoxious comments, sorry for the confusion.

No problem.

I think your comments and your point were appropriate and I agree with you. I just wanted to clarify that your experience was not in this forum and also that regardless of the forum, if such a situation existed here, and/or if anyone experienced such a situation, the moderators should be informed immediately as it is inappropriate and should be addressed.

In Health
Jeff

[JeffN]

The reason I brought this product up in the other thread is because it seemed that some people were suggesting using this product freely because it is zero fat. In fact, it is not even close to zero fat. That is not to say that it cannot be used by anybody as a condiment. But people without the understanding of food labels (like I was before Jeff's dvd) will think that it can be used freely when it cannot, and when some people would best avoid it completely.

Thanks Bob. You have hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head.

I also have a question for Jeff as to how certain products are approved on these lists. It seems to me that from the label, it cannot be determined how much fat is in the product. Should there be some cautions or caveats on that list?.

That is a good question and I do not know the answer. I think they list is extremely valuable and they McDougalls have done a great job in compiling it and trying to keep it updated. However, we have to put the list in the context of the issues I mentioned above. 1) there is no one McDougall program 2) recommendations made to one person in a specific situation with specific health concerns may not apply at all to another person 3) my recommendations are guidelines to help people make better choices and not commandments.

If you have been to any of the McDougall programs, there is always a table in the back full or "recommended" products. Many of them may fail some aspect of my Label Reading guidelines, but they are still recommended and/or allowed, sometimes used in the program and often, the best choice in the specific product category.

I know that I previously failed on the McDougall program by doing exactly what Jeff has talked about - not understanding the difference between foods that could be eaten freely and those which could be used in small amounts with caution and understanding that they are not optimal. .

You and many many others.

We are all on the path to good health and we are all learning more and more all the time. And each year, we know more from all our past experiences and can apply the knowledge to our specific situation better.

There are many many products that I used to consume that would never make it into my house anymore. Not that their occasional use was wrong or bad, but just that I am now better off for it and no longer find the need or desire to use them.

In my case, I needed and still need optimal, or close to it.

As do many others, even right form the start. I wish everyone who learned about this program did so because they had no health problems, but only a desire to learn how to live in the most healthful way. Unfortunately, many come here who are very ill, with some serious health concerns and may not have much time and they need a much more defined approach then what could be made available in a general forum or book.

As I said in an earlier post, which I think helps clarify all these issues, is that based on someone's personal situation....

Items like nuts, soy, juice and sugar are also "allowed' on the program but for many people they would not be recommended or even advisable to consume at all.

If someone is successful and the program is working for them however they are defining it, then I only wish them the best and continued success.

However, if they are struggling with achieving their goals, then they may want to "tighten up the belt" in regard to what is "allowed" and what is "recommended."

In Health
Jeff

[JeffN]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to this but did want to respond as I think you did raise some important issues that I believe would benefit from my responses.

You make it sound as if using the term “McDougall Program” is somehow inappropriate.

Not at all. We just have to understand that there is no one "cookie cutter" version of the program that is cast in stone that applies to everyone.

I find this strange since Dr. McDougall has a book are titled, “The McDougall Program: 12 Days to Dynamic Health"

Correct. But that is only one of his books. He has also authored books titled The Maximum Weight Loss Program, The McDougall Plan, The McDougall Program for a Healthy Heart, The McDougall Program for Women, etc.

It is also important to know that mainstream books are written for the general public and for 10's of 1000's of people, if not (hopefully) millions of them. There is no way any such book could ever lay out a program that would be appropriate for everyone in every situation.

To be fair Dr. McDougall does write this on page 173 of the above mentioned book,

“A few people do find that significant loss of weight while they’re on a healthy diet is a very slow process. If you’re sixty or seventy pounds overweight and you’re losing only a pound or so a week, you may be impatient as well as discouraged. In that case, you should concentrate on eating the starches having the lowest calorie yields until your weight has dropped appreciably. Use potatoes, rice, squash, and corn as the starch center for your meals. Stay away from bread.”

According to Dr. McDougall’s books you can achieve weight loss, lowered cholesterol, lower triglycerides, lower blood pressure, & lower blood sugar by following the 12 Day Program that includes all of the foods on his list of approved packaged foods. He only suggests that you adhere to the MWL guidelines if you feel impatient or discouraged by the slow speed of your weight loss.

I appreciate your fairness

However, this is in total agreement with my view.

The only difference is that 10 and 20 years ago when this book was written, weight was not the issue it is today. While it may be hard to believe, there was a point where only a few of the patients I saw had weight issues.

However, we became an overweight nation in the early 1990's and in 2009 and we became an obese nation with the number of Americans with significant weight issues increasing quickly and dramatically. Almost 70% of Americans are overweight with about 34% of them being obese.

Now, most all the patients I see not only have a weight issue, they have a serious amount of weight to lose and/or other significant health issues or have struggled with the program for a long time.
Therefore, IMH(P&P)O, these people would be better off adhering to the guidelines and principles of the MWL so they can see faster results and not be discouraged, as they do have (as Dr McDougall said in your quote) a "significant" amount of weight to lose, or other health issue, or are tired of not seeing results.

I have found that the single biggest motivator for most people is quick results and that this is especially true for people with weight issues where the results are also so visible to them and to the world.

On the other hand, you recommend that everyone basically follow the MWL guidelines unless they have met all of their health goals. I personally feel this is a significant difference between the two of you that could lead to confusion for folks attempting to follow the program.

While I understand your confusion, let me clarify, as I think I can see where the misunderstanding is coming from.

First, it is a choice that each individual has on which program they do and many find some mix of both to be best.

I do not recommend the MWL for everyone, only those who have significant weight and/or health issues or have struggled for a long time without reaching their goals. As I always say here, and said in this very thread earlier...

"If someone is successful and the program is working for them however they are defining it, then I only wish them the best and continued success."



However, and again, as the majority of the people who I see, or come to the program, or post questions for me, do have significant wieght and/or health issues, and/or have not been successful, then for most of them, I do recommend the MWL program.

So it easy to see how this may appear that I recommend it to everyone, but that is not the case nor has it ever been.

Understanding this issue will go along way in helping to clear up most any other of any confusion that exists.

Your opinion based on your experience is clear and easy to understand. But it appears to me to be different from Dr. McDougall’s opinion based on his experience.

They are actually very similar as I clarified above. There are some areas we disagree, but this is not one of them.

Remember, his books are written to the general public, are not a cookie cutter for everyone, the times have changed and most of my responses here are to people with significant weight and/or health issues.

And, as you quoted, his other comments, are to those who have significant health issues or significant amounts of weight to loss. This is the category of people that I deal mostly with.

Why do I think this is important? Because I think your recommendations can have the effect of causing people to put a bowl of cheerios with rice milk and a spoonful of white sugar in the same category as a Burger King Whopper and French Fries.

I understand your position and your concern over the impact of my recommendations, but disagree.

What I try to do is to help people understand the issues with both of these, often in more detail, and often in how it applies to their own specific health challenges.

Cheerios are a whole grain cereal, though not an intact whole grain. As a result of the processing, they are very calorie dense and have added salt. Rice milk is liquid calories which adds calories for virtually no satiety. Therefore, this would not be the best choice for someone who is trying to lose weight, or for someone who is insulin resistant. However, for those who aren't, it would be an acceptable choice, though not an ideal one.

A Whopper is not only extremely calorie dense, much more so then the Cheerios, but also very high in fat, saturated fat, cholesterol, white flour, salt, etc and would not be recommended for anyone at anytime. French fries are fried, usually in some form of a hydrogenated oil and so can also contain trans fats, are extremely high in calorie density and usually loaded with salt. Again, not a food i would recommend for anyone, ever.

Quite a difference, if you ask me.

Now, to be fair, on the other hand, are you implying that a bowl of cheerios with rice milk and a spoonful of white sugar is in the same category as a baked sweet potato and steamed broccoli?

I hope not.

Cheerios with rice milk and a spoonful of sugar would be in compliance with Dr. McDougall’s program as outlined in his books

It would not be in compliance with the MWL program.

even if it’s not in line with the dietary recommendations that you give to people on this forum.

Again, while I appreciate your input and perspective, in fairness, these comments do not accurately represent my recommendations in this forum (or anywhere else) or to everyone, but only to those who a) have serious health problems, b) have a significant amount of weight to lose and/or are insulin resistant. However, as I have said, these are the majority of the people I do see.

In general I think your advice is sound. I personally see it as advanced McDougalling. Something that can be attempted after you’ve mastered regular McDougalling.

Well thanks. )

Again, I see my recommendations as appropriate for those who have a significant amount of weight to lose and/or other significant health issues.

I think there is value in discussion with people who disagree with you. It appears that you disagree with Dr. McDougall’s recommendations in several areas. That’s fine with me. But I think that for individuals attempting to change their dietary habits it can be confusing to see you give advice that is different than Dr. McDougall’s.

I saved this for last for a reason.

There are areas we disagree, but they are minor in relation to the bigger picture of the program, and are not the ones mentioned above. Some people have raised them in other threads and when appropriate, we have discussed them.

However, I am glad you raised this point here and now as it is an important issue.

There are a few issues we disagree on.

However, it is important to realize that I am not a salesperson for the McDougall Program but a health professional dedicated to the science of health and nutrition and the well-being of my patients and that of the public. My perspective and my interpretation of the science happens to align closely with that of Dr McDougall's. Therefore, I work for Dr McDougall as a freelance consultant/contract worker and I am only paid for the services I render (ie, lectures) and I am under no obligation to "agree" with him on anything.

He hires me to give "my" lectures on the topics I choose and in spite of the fact that we do disagree on some minor issues. He has never once asked me to change any of my lectures which discuss these differences, or any of the content in them, nor has he ever wanted to edit and/or censor any part of any one of my talks. In fact, we feel it adds to the scientific discourse of the program.

And, to be honest, in him doing this, he exhibits extreme professionalism and integrity, especially in this field, and is a rare bird (or should I say potato).

I hold multiple contracts and though the one with Dr McDougall represents only a small percentage of the total, it is the one I enjoy the most.

For the record, the time, energy and effort I put in at these forums is done on my own as a volunteer and was started at my own request.

This is all also important because in the world of health, so many health professionals have sold out their integrity for a few dollars to work for big companies and industries, and/or to sell health products and/or to sell supplements and compromise their message and integrity for a paycheck.

In Health
Jeff

[landog]

For the record, the time, energy and effort I put in at these forums is done on my own as a volunteer and was started at my own request.

You can't imagine how much you have helped me.
Thank you! The Jeff Novick forum rocks!

Be well, people...
-dog

[Letha..]

Now, to be fair, on the other hand, are you implying that a bowl of cheerios with rice milk and a spoonful of white sugar is in the same category as a baked sweet potato and steamed broccoli?
I hope not.
Jeff

Yes, I do put a bowl of cheerios with rice milk and a spoonful of sugar into the same category with a baked sweet potato and steamed broccoli. The category is ‘Compliance with the McDougall Program’ as outlined by Dr. John McDougall in his book “The McDougall Program: 12 Days to Dynamic Health”. This book gives examples where graduates of his program lowered their cholesterol, triglycerides, blood pressure, blood sugar, and weight by following the 12 Day Program that includes foods like Quick Apple Pie, Fast Pizza, Strawberry Frozen Fruit Dessert, Spaghetti, Pita Bread, Pasta Salad, Whole Wheat Toast, & Whole Grain Bread Sandwiches. It is not necessary to follow MWL guidelines to correct these health concerns as Dr. McDougall has successfully demonstrated.
Letha

[JeffN]

Yes, I do put a bowl of cheerios with rice milk and a spoonful of sugar into the same category with a baked sweet potato and steamed broccoli.

I appreciate your perspective and we will just have to agree to disagree.

Remember, the book you keep referring to is a mainstream publication on the general principles of the program and there is no one McDougall Program that can apply to everyone, everywhere. Otherwise, there would be no role for Dr McDougall, Mary, Doug, or me anymore and the programs we run, as we could just give everyone the book.

If you came to a 10-Day program, you will see that the program is applied differently to the people there, depending on what their individual health issues are.

And, the people I am dealing with here are not the ones who are successful or they would not be coming to me. And many of them have been trying to implement the program on their own, even from the books you mentioned.

Lastly, "If someone is successful and the program is working for them however they are defining it, then I only wish them the best and continued success."

In Health
Jeff

[Letha..]

And, the people I am dealing with here are not the ones who are successful or they would not be coming to me. And many of them have been trying to implement the program on their own, even from the books you mentioned.
In Health
Jeff

So, it sounds to me like you are saying that following the McDougall Program’ as outlined by Dr. John McDougall in his book “The McDougall Program: 12 Days to Dynamic Health” is not always successful in lowering cholesterol, triglycerides, blood pressure, blood sugar, and weight. I was not aware of this. Are there any statistics that you can share about how often the program is not successful?
Letha

[JeffN]

So, it sounds to me like you are saying that following the McDougall Program’ as outlined by Dr. John McDougall in his book “The McDougall Program: 12 Days to Dynamic Health” is not always successful in lowering cholesterol, triglycerides, blood pressure, blood sugar, and weight. I was not aware of this. Are there any statistics that you can share about how often the program is not successful?

Unfortunately, this is not a black and white issue and while there is no statistics on what you ask, there are not statistics on the other side either.

Or, if we want to discuss anecdotes, I could say 100%,

The reason is that 100% of the people who come to me do so because they are trying hard at the program but are not being successful at it. I rarely if ever take on clients who are not familiar with these programs.

However, we do not have to go any further than these forums as they are full of people who are following the program, as they understand it, and not having the success they want, whether that be in regard to weight, cholesterol, blood sugar, etc.

As an example, and as someone who has volunteered this very story here publicly and is now a Star McDougaller, so I feel comfortable sharing it here, I would refer you to SactoBob, who says he could not get the results he wanted untill he consulted with me and we had to fine tune some things he was doing. The problem was, as I have tried to elucidate here over and over, the program very often has to be adjusted to the needs and health conditions of the specific individual.

However, I have also met people who have been successful, and have never had to fine tune their program as far as the MWL program.

It is not a black and/or white issue.

Why do you think the MWL program was created?

As I am unfamiliar with you and your experience, would you be willing to share your own story and how well your approach is working for you and your success so far (ie, how long you have been on the program and your starting numbers and where they are now) and your level of satisfaction with the results you have achieved?

In Health
Jeff