Discussion Board

Hello,

I can't find a brand of fat free rice milk. The rice dream we use has some fat, and oils listed in the ingredients. Is there an acceptable Ultimate weight loss brand of milk out there?

Second, can anyone refer me to which recipes are FLAVORFUL? I used a lot of ingredients and spent a lot of time preparing and making one of the recipes tonight, but in the end it didn't taste much different than plain ol' rice and veggies. Plus I don't like cooking so I need to make sure when I do, it is worth my effort. Otherwise I may as well just make it easy on myself, and just eat rice and steamed veggies.

My family (6 of us) have been vegan for almost two years. When I cook a "real" meal I no longer use salts or oils, and I don't much like what I cook either, but I know it is healthy. My family rarely eats these bland meals that I make homemade, so we do a lot of vegan processed foods:canned or frozen. But I still have another 40 lbs, at least, to lose. So, tasteless or not, I am sticking to this Ultimate weight loss plan, but I sure wish I new which recipes are truly worth the effort.

If someone could steer me in the right direction, and make this a little more enjoyable for me, I would sure appreciate it.

Thanks so much,
Kelly

Kelly, can't help you with the milk thing, as I decided to forget it until I'd gotten down to my goal weight.

However, as for flavorful it of course all depends on what flavors you like! Are you using balsamic vinegar--my favorite? Are you using smoked paprika, chipotle chili powder, dijon mustard or any of the many mustards? I don't care to cook much either, and I work full time and commute an hour each way, so it has GOT to be easy and quick for me. So the flavors have to be there from the start--I can't wait for things to mellow for a few hours!

If you have old spices that have been sitting in your cabinets for a while, get new ones. I also find that yams are incredibly flavorful and I'm using them as flavoring as well as for the nutrition they give. Experiment and figure out what taste you are looking for. (When I first started I knew I would miss the wonderful flavor that oil gives to onions and garlic, but my taste buds have recalibrated, and I don't miss it as much as I thought I would.)

I hope this helps a bit.

Hello,
What do you do with the spices - sprinkle them on potatoes or rice or just add them to a recipe? I have always wished I could work with spices, but have no idea how to. Before, my main spices were salt, pepper, and oil. I think that is probably standard for the American diet, especially for those of us who don't like to cook.

I actually used to like to cook. My husband said I cooked great "heart attack food. " But I don't like to cook so much now, since becoming a vegan. I get continually frustrated putting in all that time for a new recipe, and have it be so disappointing and lacking taste.

I know you are right and that my taste will change again with this diet. It already has with becoming vegan. But still...the only way I told myself I could make it through this program, is by telling myself I would be completely bored with the food, but that it would be worth it to get the rest of my weight off.

I'm not one of the happy dieters...I really was hoping that with the change from the SAD diet, and becoming vegan that it would just naturally come off. I lost about 20 lbs the first 8 months or so, and then nothing more the following year. I'm turning 40 in nine months, and I want to enter that new time in my life at a normal weight, so I'm sticking to this eating plan. But I have to say I am not thrilled about it, even though I absolutely love Dr. McDougall's books and advice.

I have to check out this ticker factory I am seeing on everyone's signatures. I just joined a few days ago.

Thanks so much for responding. It's wonderful to have some support.

OK, I'm thinking about how you can approach this problem of tastelessness. I am wondering what flavors you are missing. How long were you a vegan before trying McDougall's MWL program--about a year and a half? Did you like flavors when you were a vegan? What were you eating then? Was that boring too? Are you missing soy cheese, nuts, avocado, or what?

And then it would help to see what recipes you are trying that are boring. In my first month on the program, I tried some duds, I'll tell you, and some I even had to throw out (my cheap bone still hurts from doing that!) So can you tell us what you have been making? And what books you already have? So tell us what you are missing, and what you are making, and maybe we can help more specifically!

In answer to your initial question, you almost always add in the spices during the cooking process. According to Dr McD, a little salt can be sprinkled directly on your food to give it flavor. Most of the time, dried herbs and spices need to be cooked in to give any flavor. I don't have much access to fresh herbs up here, so I don't have a lot of experience with them.

I have one salad dressing that I use, making a double batch, and I use it on other stuff too--potatoes and rice dishes--to give it a kick. It works if you like balsamic vinegar, and it has a bit of sweetness to it. I am hesitating giving the recipe, for fear you don't like the flavor of balsamic, but I live by this stuff--it's from the Dec. 2009 Newsletter:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/dec/recipes.htm

Perfect No-Oil Balsamic Dressing
By Chad Sarno

Chad demonstrated this fantastic dressing at the last McDougall Advanced Study weekend in September of 2009. Keep this in your refrigerator to dress your daily bowl of greens.

Preparation Time: 5 minutes
Servings: makes about 1 ½ cups

1 cup balsamic vinegar
1/3 cup shoyu or tamari
3 tablespoons maple syrup
3 tablespoon nutritional yeast
2 tablespoons Dijon mustard
1 tablespoon onion powder
1 clove garlic, minced
½ teaspoon vegan Worcestershire sauce
Minced fresh herbs of choice (see hints below)

Combine all ingredients in a blender jar and process until thoroughly mixed.

*Hints: Try a variety of fresh herbs, such as rosemary, oregano, chives, or use just one of your favorites. This will keep in the refrigerator for at least a week. Having delicious, oil-free dressings readily available in your refrigerator makes it easy to enjoy a fresh green salad at every meal.

*I never remember to add any herbs and spices to this, so don't bother unless you feel like you want to! I have taken to leaving out the soy sauce to lower the sodium content of the recipe, but if you are looking for flavor, I'd leave it in until you have a sense that you could live without it.

I know you can lose that 40 pounds in 9 months! I turned 61 last month, and have been dieting all my life, and never thought I could lose this fast and this far ever again. Of course, it's NOT a diet--it's the way I'm going to eat for the rest of my very long life--and it feels so right and good to me, that I worry a little about your boredom. I really want to help you! The younger you are when you get the weight off, the more vibrant your life will be!

I know what you mean about most of it all tasting alike, but bland (a.k.a., blah). Elaborate recipes are too much trouble, especially since there's only one of me. BUT, there are two I've found that are really good.

The best I've found to date are the Festive Dal soup and the Peanut Sauce (made with low sodium soy sauce) for greens. I'm salt sensitive so have to be careful about the sodium, so can't salt things as much, but the soup is really good with just a little salt added on top as I eat it.

DJ

Hello,

FV (frozenveg - sorry I couldn't find a name), Deb, DJ,

Thanks for the recipes. I hope I like them too. Where can I find the festive dal soup and P.nut sauce recipe? I will give them a try, and keep my opinion to myself if I don't find it flavorful enough - hahaha. I do appreciate recipes that have been tried and found flavorful.

I don't really eat to many soy products. I never got into all the processed fake meats/cheeses. I eat them occasionally, but they are not a staple, so I'm not missing them. However, in thinking about it more, I think what I am missing the most is SALT. All the various vegan processed foods (canned soups, rice mixes, etc.) that we eat, all have lots of sodium. So is must be the salt that I am missing most.

Becoming Vegan was sort of a cold turkey thing for me. My friend told me to read the Food Revolution, and by the time I finished the book I had gone from a full meat/cheese SAD diet, where fast food was a daily part of my life to becoming a vegan (except desserts - that took a little longer). It's been almost two years, and I haven't looked back. I have felt completely satisfied with my vegan diet, and feel so much better health wise.

The recipe I tried this week was the McDougall Vegetable Rice Casserole w/ the "cheese" sauce. I tried those, because the ingredients seemed familiar. I was disappointed in both the sauce and the casserole. It's not that they are bad, they just are not flavorful to me.

I tried a couple of recipes in the Engine 2 diet book last year. My family, however, got frustrated with them, because he would claim these recipes tasted just like the real thing, and they were far, far, from the real thing. I remade a couple of the recipes months later, and called them by a different name, and they actually liked them. I just wish honesty reigned more in the recipes. Like, "Hey, this is a lot of work, and pretty bland in the end, but if you like .....you might like the way these ingredients are put together."

It's the expectation the makes the end result so frustrating. I'm sure if I liked to cook, and my family appreciated my efforts then I might find this diet more enjoyable. Or if I had someone cooking for me everyday...then I am sure i would LOVE it - hahaha - s long as I didn't have to cook it.

I don't feel like I am suffering to much, at this point, but I think that is because i prepared myself to be disappointed with my food for the next months. I just hope I can maintain the weight once it is lost, if I can't find enough flavor.

Anyway - thanks so much for the listening ear, and all the food helps.

The ticker factory, makes it fun

Bye,
Kelly

Hi Kelly,

While I dont think it is good to only look to weight loss, I just turned 60 on 9-2 & have been back McDougalling 98% MWL, 2% regular McDougall, today is the beginning of my 10th week & I have lost 22 lbs. as of today. So in 9 months, yes, you can lose that 40 lbs if you stick to it. I had been struggling for a while & I was about to quit when I decided to give it 90 days. I committed to it & I am on day 64. I have about 4 wks left, although of course I am going to continue. My taste buds have changed, I prefer the blander food now. I am sure it is more challenging for you, with a family, etc. but at least you had already given up the meat, etc. I went thru a lot of de-tox stuff which made it more challenging but I got thru it. You probably wont have all that.

Jan

Kelly,
Having been where you are, I fully sympathize with where you are. It is really hard adjusting the calorie density of your diet downwards. Doug Lisle has written a book, The Pleasure Trap, which explains why this is so and how hard it is at first.

In fact, I would say that you are worse off than I was. Although I adjusted my calorie density down below where you are now, at least I was getting fantastic results, which made the suffering more tolerable. For a while, it seemed like I would never enjoy food again. You are in the worst of all worlds - not enjoying your foods and not even getting good results.

The problem and solution are really pretty simple - but not easy. If you are a volume eater, you may have to learn what it is like to eat to satisfaction rather than feeling stuffed. But mostly, you are going to have to adjust your calorie density of and pleasure level from food down even lower, which does not sound like much fun I am sure. And the reason you have to do this is because your current application of Dr. McDougall's principles has you maintaining a steady weight which is much too high. At your weight, a healthy application of Dr. McDougall's diet will result in a steady loss, and you will not stabilize at a BMI at or near the obese range.

If there is a secret to success, IMO, it is in knowing, understanding, and accepting that you will have some level of suffering as your body adapts itself to lower calorie density foods, and then committing to do what is necessary. It will take a commitment. It is not enough to just follow your interpretation of what Dr. McDougall teaches and then resign yourself to being obese on this diet. You will find many examples even here of doing exactly that. I have known some people who have transitioned to this diet without much suffering, but I (and you apparently) are not among that lucky group.

I would recommend that you get a couple of DVDs - The Pleasure Trap by Douglas Lisle and the Calorie Density DVD by Jeff Novick. Both are available here, and also any DVDs by these guys. Then you will understand the issue, know that you are in for some suffering, but also know that the suffering does not last, and that you will soon be enjoying healthy foods nearly as much as the old foods, and feeling and seeing the tremendous results.

But, as you have already discovered, although you can make a healthy dish look like a decadent and unhealthy dish, it is not going to taste the same. The secret is not in adjusting the recipe, but in adjusting your sense of taste. Doug Lisle explains how that happens. If you can commit to do it, you will succeed. But you need to know that it is very possible to eat entirely from McDougall approved foods while maintaining an obese BMI. So there is a bit of work ahead for you, and I wish you success.

But there is one thing you can be sure of. If you are maintaining an unhealthy BMI, you are not properly applying the principles of this diet, and it will take awhile to learn to like the less processed and calorie dense foods that you will need to eat.

Hello,
Jan & Bob

I totally agree that trying to loss weight just to loss weight isn;t a healthy outlook. However, my desire to lose weight is truly for my health, rather than vanity, so my motivating factors are healthy minded. It's just that my weight loss stalled at a 20lb. loss, so just eating healthy wasn't enough for my body. The future weight loss for me is just a physical sign that I am out of the obese range, and can live out my life at a healthy weight.

Which is probably why I put my goal weight as 149. I am only 5'4" and assume that I should be in the 120 or low 130's, but to get anywhere in the 140's right now I would consider to be out of the obese section for my height. Though, I can't say I know all the numbers. I should take a look at that...

I had sever detox symptoms too, when I became vegan. I threw up for 6 weeks straight. My body was that toxic. Then I tried some natural remedies (Gerson), and finally stopped feeling so sick, and throwing up. I have been reading a ton on health since i became vegan, and I love this new lifestyle. It has enhanced every aspect of my life.

I'm not really sure yet about the suffering vs. weight loss yet, because I just started about 5 days ago at about 85%. Today was my first full day, and it wasn't so bad. I don't have a scale at my home, and don't want one either, but I plan to weight myself once a week at a friends home. So, next Friday, I hope to have some results.

One thing I have liked so far, is it is forcing me to eat a lot of veggies (I'm doing the rapid stage -half and half), which I have felt would be a huge help both health wise and weight wise. So far, in these handful of days, what I think I will take away most from this program is to take time for veggie snacks, and alwasy eat as much veggies as I am eating of whatever else is on my plate.

It hasn't been as hard to eat veggies as I thought. I do easy things like cut up a piece of celery, throw them in my hand and chase my kids around here and there. I find that I actually like celery now, if they are in tiny bite sizes.

I read you story Bob. It is amazing how the right foods, can change an entire life. Your family has got to be so happy.

Love, and light,
Kelly

Kelly, the Festive Dal Soup and the Hearty Dal Soup are in one of the newsletters - April 2007, I think. The only difference between them is that the Festive takes 2 Cups of chopped spinach and the Hearty substitutes chard and potatoes, so take your pick.

The peanut sauce I don't remember, but it's so easy: 3/4 cups peanut butter, 1/4 cup low sodium soy sauce, 3/4 cup rice vinegar, and 1/4 cup warm water (plus some chili, that I leave out). Then blend it together. It stores for over a week in the fridge.

The newsletters are all on-line, and there's a recipe index so you should be able to access them easily.

I haven't found any non-fat rice milk, either, in fact the only non-fat non-dairy milk I have found is soy milk. I don't know why there is added fat in some of the others - it makes no sense to me.

Good luck, DJ

Hi Kelly,
Yes, my family is a happy one, which I owe so much to people like Jeff and Dr. M. As for your goal, I think you will easily accomplish that and more if you can make the change. I think you are smart to concentrate on overall health. The weight will just come off naturally.

Here is a link to a lecture by Dr. Lisle. http://video.vsh.org/lisle.html
That lecture explains the challenge and what will be going on as you transition. It is not truly a detox that is happening, but it is not far off to think of it in that way.

Although some people can approach this plan by doing 85%, 90%, or 95% (95% seems to be a popular number), the people who really succeed are those that do 100%. By allowing the old foods into our diet in any amounts, we fail to lose our desire for them. If you can make it 30-60 days at 100%, it gets easy after that, and the foods start tasting better.

I remember my transition very well, and felt very sorry for myself. I thought that my choices were disability and death on one side and horrible food on the other side. I was pretty angry about it.

But what Dr. Lisle explains is true. My foods now taste great and I see them doing so many great things for me. I wouldn't go back to SAD foods even if I knew I could do it without medical problems.

BTW, since you are kind of new, I would really recommend Jeff Novick's DVD on label reading. The best foods don't have labels, but for those that do, they can be very deceptive and misleading. My favorite loophole is how companies can advertise products that are 100% fat as fat free and 0 calories from fat.

DJ - That Festive Dal recipe looks great! I need to try that one soon. Unfortunately I can't do the peanut sauce yet, because peanuts are off limits on the Ultimate weight loss section. At least they are on the version I have from the library - 1994. When I get to my maintenance level I guess I can do that recipe.

Ok - so you can't find a FF rice milk either. I wonder what :milk" people drink on the maintenance level?

Bob - I belong to the vegsource site, so I was lucky enough to see Jeff Novicks talk on label reading. I listened to it twice, and am still a little confused. I should listen to it again now that I am officially McDougalling. I haven't heard of Dr, Lisle though, so I will check out that site - thank you.

Do you guys know anything about the Braggs Liquid Aminos? Do I need to use that sparingly too, since it has sodium? I have been putting in on my beans and potatoes the last few days for salt flavoring.

Oh, and I found out my BMI, so I moved my goal to 143 (normal range). I now have a smaller goal first, and that is to get out of the obese range. At one 171 I will be "overweight." Never thought I would have a goal to be overweight - hahahaha
Thanks,
Kelly

"Ok - so you can't find a FF rice milk either. I wonder what :milk" people drink on the maintenance level?"

Kelly, I am not on maintenance yet, but I used to use rice milk on occassion & I dont think I ever saw FF. Since rice does have a little fat in in naturally, maybe that is where the fat comes from? I have been using almond milk, which I like better. I have yet to be able to find a non-sweetened one but since I dont use it often, it has been okay. Rice milk has a funny taste to me, almost an aftertaste.

I have wondered about the Braggs amino acids as well but have never used it. I do not add salt to my food, in fact, I stopped putting salt on my food back in the late 70's. Of course I mean in the food I cooked, not in the stuff I bought either fast food or out of the box.

Funny about having the goal to be overweight. I will have to look mine up, I am 5'5". I actually have a goal of weighing 132, but I dont remember ever weighing that. I did once weigh 110 lbs in the 8th grade, I remember my dr. telling my mother I was a perfect weight for my age/height. And that is the last I remember. Although I know I did weigh myself when I was in high school, but I can't remember what the weight was. Too long ago. Right before I got married though, I weighed around 142 lbs, & I think I thought I was still overweight, but we'll see.

Jan

Thanks so much for sharing Jan...I appreciate it so much.

I just use Rice Dream for the rice milk. It is low enough in fat. I prefer almond milk for drinking, but it will have to wait until I am back down to my goal

As far as flavoring the food, I use Bragg's, apple cider and balsamic vinegars, salsa (lots), garlic, and BBQ sauce on almost everything. I like the taste of the veggies plain or just with salt and pepper to taste, but potatoes and rice need some jazzing up.