kempner diet and retinopathy

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kempner diet and retinopathy

Postby dteresa » Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:47 am

Sometimes people write and say that they have tried the wfpb no fat diet and have not shown improvement in whatever area they were seeking improvement. (Someone wrote in that his or her MS has not improved after several months on this woe. And dr. Wahls claimed she greatly improved her MS to the extent of now being wheel chair free with a high organ meat and certain type of fat diet plus nine cups of vegies per day) Others will answer that they are doing something wrong or should tweak their diet or offer some other good advice. However, reading a link in one of the McD newsletters about the Kempner rice diet, it is apparent that even with the best of diets, things do not always improve.

In at least one of his talks, dr. McD shows photos of great improvement in retinopathy of one patient whose problem was of an 18 year duration, and who greatly improved after following the rice diet. But reading the whole article you find that out of 44 patients with retinopathy, exudates etc., and over a period of about 22 months, only 13 showed reversal in both eyes, 7 in one eye, 9 showed PROGRESSION, and 15 showed no change.

The results we read or hear are based on statistics. In wfpb talks one only hears about the great improvements. No one stands up and says that in 20% of the patients the condition got worse or that an additional 30% showed no change. I can't think of a better diet. Certainly meat and fat and dairy are very unlikely to produce any positive results (I don't think). But lauding only the positive results gives people false hope that a cure is always possible and might tend to make them give up what is probably the most healthful diet because he or she is not one of the "cured".

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Last edited by dteresa on Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: kempner diet and retinopathy

Postby eXtremE » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:30 am

I have said this also didi. You only hear about the success stories. I think it is equally important to share the stories of the people who really adhered to the diet but showed no improvement.
On 7/8/2013, I decided to change my diet to a "mostly" WFPB diet. I have always been somewhat lean and muscular due to being a lifelong exerciser. Change in diet due to feeling crummy all the time despite a healthy outward appearance. Image
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Re: kempner diet and retinopathy

Postby f1jim » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:36 am

We must keep in mind that every legitimate treatment will have failures. Even the treatments we associate with great success. Do we make an effort to focus on the failures of conventional treatments? No we use the best treatments and if those don't work we take the next best option. People must assume that every treatment method will have some unsuccessful events.
Also, looking at the outcomes of a study we must not focus so much on the failures but on the outcomes vs other possible treatments. No one initially looks at the failures of any treatment unless the numbers are hopelessly futile.
Is it just me or am I too Pollyanna? How bout looking at the half full glass instead of the half empty one? Which viewpoint would better serve a patient?
Wake up folks.
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Re: kempner diet and retinopathy

Postby landog » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:57 am

dteresa wrote:But lauding only the positive results gives people false hope that a cure is always possible and might tend to make them give up what is probably the most healthful diet because he or she is not one of the "cured".

If you are expecting a low fat, whole foods, plant based diet to cure everything all the time, you are just being unrealistic.

If you are trying to cure heart disease (#1 killer), statins and stents have about a 30% failure rate (to the best of my recollection from a recent talk by Dr. Esselstyn). A low fat, whole foods, plant based diet has a less than 2% failure rate.

That is not false hope.
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Re: kempner diet and retinopathy

Postby dteresa » Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:47 pm

In the case of the Mediterranean Diet Study, in several studies on nuts, olive oil, dairy, eggs, meat, we read of wonderful results. Jeff, plantpositive, healthylongevity and others do a bang up job of pointing out the actual numbers involved, the difference between absolute and relative numbers, and often what food was actually eaten, and how the numbers were arrived at. Then they explain that the numbers are not as good as they are made to appear to be. If we demand a certain standard for others, we should adhere to those standards ourselves. You asked if we make an effort to focus on the failures of conventional treatments. Actually, yes. On this group we do. All the time. And so do Pam Popper, Esselstyn and others. I am not disagreeing with their assessments.

I think you are mistaken if you believe many people are listening to a talk which shows photos of reversal of retinopathy, and from the laudatory remarks are not assuming that he or she will be cured by eating wfpb. Or that people are not reading the testimonies of star McDougallers and believing (and hopefully they are correct) that they too will experience such improvements. Dr. McD is fond of contrasting his diet with those of certain commercial diet groups which say honestly, that the results they publish are the best cases and not everyone will profit as much. Just read the replies to people who write in to this group and say that they are compliant to this way of eating and are still having symptoms of whatever. The assumption is always that they are doing something wrong. They may be but then again it is entirely possible that they really are being compliant. You seldom see anyone say that statistically your chances of improvement are better with this woe but their are no guarantees. I think honesty always serves a patient best.

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Re: kempner diet and retinopathy

Postby f1jim » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:26 am

No one is being dishonest here. Our mission is to give this diet every possible chance to work. Dissecting someone's diet and finding every possible area that may be problematic is not deceitful. Coming from such a position can be viewed as assuming the person has done something wrong but the process of analyzing someone's diet is going to carry that risk. How else can someone rule out possible reasons for the diet not working? To assume an attitude of condescention about anyone trying to help is just as wrong.
When I take an aspirin I assume it will relieve my headache. Should I focus on it's possible failure? Come on. Those that wish to may be in need of different treatment.
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Re: kempner diet and retinopathy

Postby baardmk » Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:12 am

I don't know what to make of this discussion. I agree somewhat with both sides. There are a lot of us who have unrealistically high expectations and believe all low fat-plants will save the day. Then we learn a thing or two from Jeffrey Novick, from the field of calorie restriction and some patterns from users on this forum (or other forums) or other sources. Should we blame the people with unrealistic expectations for being silly or the PB-doctors for over-advertising or not giving a nuanced message? I don't know exactly.

Jim's point is a good one. Compared with the failures or inadequacies of most conventional treatments, a dietary approach shouldn't lay off the arms with its advertisement. But just as a doctor will try to not put a patient's hopes up too much, many PB doctors need to temper the hopes of some of their clients. I guess they do in private consultations. There's also the other side, maybe even more important. Patients given hope and being empowered will hopefully do better in most regards.

Personally, I accept that some of my diseases are self-induced, my own fault if you wish. I'm greedy and want the maximum improvement I can get, and I find that I can improve things with experimenting. I'm trying also to accept that my conditions won't get 100% better. That is kind of difficult for me, because I've experienced 90% symptomatic improvement and there's always some things I haven't tried yet.

The good people in the plant-based movement is up against massive dogmas entrenched in science even that "there's nothing you can do", "it's genes" or "stress, carcinogenic chemicals and gamma radiation is killing us". Saying we have *a* cure for MS, when there's documentation strongly supporting this, isn't disingenuous.

I do have the impression that there are too many people who believe that this WOE will cure 100%. The PB-movement will attract a lot of absolutist types. Who to blame for these people's beliefs? McDougall says that he doesn't consider himself an alternative doctor - he just wants that people fix the cause of diseases set on by faulty dietary choices.

And "if" the diet is the cause for developing retinopathy, why should we be discouraged when only 1/3 shows improvement with a new regimen. Diet is the main cause of the majority of illness we see around us, and people need to wake up to this fact. Also, of course, if the drawbacks of eating the proper human diet is that many people will perceive you as too thin, or strange, that's not really good reason to actively temper people's expectations.
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Re: kempner diet and retinopathy

Postby Katydid » Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:58 am

Anyone who's read my Star McDougaller story knows that I once weighed over 300 pounds and had severe life-threatening asthma. Following this WOE allowed me to get off a half dozen dangerous medications and lose over 170 pounds. But the truth is, my lungs are severely damaged with scar tissue from years of near fatal asthma attacks leaving me with half the lung capacity of a normal person. :crybaby:

I would be a fool to say that I am cured of anything. I simply have no symptoms on a day-to-day basis. But exposure to say - drying oil paint or a strong perfume - can still trigger an attack. So I have a rescue inhaler in my purse or pocket at all times. And I get my flu and pneumonia shots every year. A lung infection is not just a day off work for me :shock: .

So was this WOE a cure? No. Asthma is in my genes. But Dr. Campbell is correct in that diet can turn genetic expression on and off. I now weigh 140 pounds and can walk, swim, bike and hike for miles. 16 years ago, I couldn't walk around the block or get through the summer without two or three hospitalizations. Just don't feed me an ice cream sundae or a cheese pizza or you'll see the end of my asthma "cure" :lol:

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Re: kempner diet and retinopathy

Postby openmind » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:21 am

dteresa wrote:Sometimes people write and say that they have tried the wfpb no fat diet and have not shown improvement in whatever area they were seeking improvement. (Someone wrote in that his or her MS has not improved after several months on this woe. And dr. Wahls claimed she greatly improved her MS to the extent of now being wheel chair free with a high organ meat and certain type of fat diet plus nine cups of vegies per day) Others will answer that they are doing something wrong or should tweak their diet or offer some other good advice. However, reading a link in one of the McD newsletters about the Kempner rice diet, it is apparent that even with the best of diets, things do not always improve.

In at least one of his talks, dr. McD shows photos of great improvement in retinopathy of one patient whose problem was of an 18 year duration, and who greatly improved after following the rice diet. But reading the whole article you find that out of 44 patients with retinopathy, exudates etc., and over a period of about 22 months, only 13 showed reversal in both eyes, 7 in one eye, 9 showed PROGRESSION, and 15 showed no change.

The results we read or hear are based on statistics. In wfpb talks one only hears about the great improvements. No one stands up and says that in 20% of the patients the condition got worse or that an additional 30% showed no change. I can't think of a better diet. Certainly meat and fat and dairy are very unlikely to produce any positive results (I don't think). But lauding only the positive results gives people false hope that a cure is always possible and might tend to make them give up what is probably the most healthful diet because he or she is not one of the "cured".

didi


I think you've made some great points, and I think we all should educate ourselves on what the actual studies and actual numbers show. The most outlandish claim I've heard from the plant based doctors so far and the one I think needs more evidence to back it up in the future is that Dr. Esselstyn's diet can make a person heart attack proof. Personally, I think Esselstyn is on to something, but as far as I know we are in the infant stages of trying to prove a WFPB strictly adhered to can virtually guarantee no future cardiac events.

I would like to add some anecdotal evidence to the Rice Diet debate. My sister-in-law had been told by one doctor she should prepare for dialysis. Then she went to another specialist who put her on a diet of rice and a few fruits (essentially the Rice Diet, but this is taking place in a foreign country and her doctor never mentioned Kempner or the Rice Diet, so I can't say with 100% certainty that she is following the Kempner protocol exactly). The result has been that she's apparently been able to halt the disease in its tracks, for now at least. That doesn't mean she'll ever be able to reverse it completely- with only 15% kidney function remaining, I am doubtful about that. But she has seen great benefit, because I believe she would now be on dialysis otherwise.
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Re: kempner diet and retinopathy

Postby f1jim » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:18 am

Actually, of all the claims made for plant based eating' following the Esselstyn protocol to make yourself heart attack proof might be one of the safest bets. We know the lions share of heart attacks are caused by younger, smaller plaques that respond quickly to diet. Even Dr. Esselstyn would never assume any treatment is a 100% guarantee of anything but following his protocol effectively leaves a person heart attack proof. This would be true if your heart attack is caused by the process responsible for most everyone's attack. It would not necessarily help with obscure causes of MI. People can and should have very high expectations for shutting down the atherosclorotic process by following his diet rigidly. We will encourage those with heart disease to follow that protocol and do everything to give them optimism about their chances and for them to assume success if they do. It's their best shot and should be their first shot. Zero negative side effects, only negative attitudes from individuals. They won't stay long.
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Re: kempner diet and retinopathy

Postby Lesliec1 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:18 pm

This seems unfair to me - to the pb doctors and also to us patients. So the pb docs should talk more about the failures while others dont? Who does that help? Discourage people right off the bat so they can turn away and go back to what? I have never had a single doctor give me any negative side of any treatment or drug unless directly asked. If the thread was simply about the fact that NO doctor of any kind is very upfront about failures, I might almost agree. I'm not sure I can think of professionals of any kind who disclose their failure rates. Not sure why any particular doctors would be singled out here. Is it just pessimism?

Furthermore, in the case of my disease, Dr. M does say that the success rate is about 70% so it wasn't a secret. Not sure I believe that number. I personally think it has to be a lot higher than that but it doesn't matter. I probably would have tried it knowing the success rate was much much lower. What else is there?
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Re: kempner diet and retinopathy

Postby eXtremE » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:56 pm

Here is what I have done. I just log into my Amazon account and read the book reviews and then try to communicate with some of the people who have had both successes and failures on these type diets. Some ppl don't respond to my questions but many do. Neil Barnard's book for reversing diabetes has many positive reviews but there are ppl who really adhered to the diet and could not get it to work. Instead of driving blood sugars down, this diet caused them further deterioration. I think it all depends on how much damage has been done bf you try to make these healthy lifestyle changes.

I also personally think that high fat combined with the carbs (whether refined or whole grains) is the deadliest combination. Even tho I think an Atkins type diet is very unhealthy, I think it is still better than SAD = high fat / high refined carbs / and some whole grain carbs., esp. when it comes to diabetes. You have all this fat in the diet, then you eat the carbs (refined or not), blood sugars soar, fat blocks the insulin from working, pancreas sees all this BS, keeps pumping out insulin, just a vicious, deadly cycle. If you are going to eat a high meat diet, it is best IMO to stay away from most carbs. That combination is deadly. The best and healthiest way to eat is a healthy plant based diet from a young age bf too much damage has been done. (JMHO)
On 7/8/2013, I decided to change my diet to a "mostly" WFPB diet. I have always been somewhat lean and muscular due to being a lifelong exerciser. Change in diet due to feeling crummy all the time despite a healthy outward appearance. Image
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