Are we getting enough essential fatty acids?

[Spiral]

I read ChefAJ's post about no longer regularly consuming ground flax seed. She mentioned that weight loss was easier once she made that change.

For the last several years I have been mixing in about a tablespoon of ground flax seed into my oatmeal each morning, in order to get enough essential fatty acids. Having read Chef AJ's post, I have considered discontinuing the ground flax seed.

But then I read this from Dr. Fuhrman. Lack of DHA linked to Parkinson's Disease

Prominent Vegetarian and Health Advocate (1921-2008) – this leader in the natural health movement and a personal friend to me also suffered from and eventually died from a fall related to his Parkinson's disease. During his young adult life he embarked on the path of healthy living and vegetarianism.

Now, there is another point of view, one expressed by Jeff Novick in this discussion thread that I found this morning.

I think it is also important to note that a recommendation of EPA and DHA as nutritional supplements for veg*ns would imply that humans are adapted to require dietary components that are not found in plants. If the evidence pointed to such a conclusion, I would go with the evidence but I have no desire to leap beyond the evidence into such problematic territory: if one such adaptation were demonstrated the likelihood that other such adaptations exist would increase. So far, I don’t think the evidence points that way.

In the collaborative analysis of studies comparing vegetarians with other dietary groups, fish-eaters and vegetarians showed very comparable results (Table 7 http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/70/3/516S ). The fish-eaters will have had higher intakes of EPA and DHA than the vegetarians but this does not seem to have conferred an advantage. Once again, evidence to recommend EPA/DHA seems lacking."

I agree.

While I try to keep the discussion/threads on the health issues and the available evidence, the point of having an article end in the sale of the product recommended in the article, take away from the credibility of the article, regardless of who writes the article.

As I have said here many times, supplements can and do play a role, but should only be recommended on an individual basis on an as needed basis, with informed consent. In addition, as a health professional, (and as the ethical guidelines of most all health professions agree) it is a compromise of the doctor/patient relationship for me to directly sell supplements to a patient. My role is to evaluate their health situation and if a supplement (or medication) is necessary, to tell them which one and which brand I may recommend, and/or where to get it the cheapest for the highest quality. And, I should refrain from any sales of promotions of specific brands unless I am fully disclosing all my financial relationships with the brand and making them available at my cost as a added benefit to the patient.

In other words, if I thought someone needed B12, it is my job to discuss the various forms of B12, which I would recommend and why, and where they could get it for the best price. And, if I was to make it available, it would be only to offer it at or below cost as a service to you.

Anecdotal stories of isolated cases of disease and death from an evidence based professional, only makes their position worse, not better.

Personally, I won't even go near the personal sales of these products as I feel it compromises my ethics, integrity and professionalism. After over 5 years of being "in charge" of the supplement program for a former employer, my total commissions equaled "0" because I refused to sell them. However, when they were appropriate, I did recommend them on occasions to specific patients for specific reasons, but I also told them where was the best place for them to buy them.

In Health
Jeff

So, are we at risk for essential fatty acid deficiency? Are we putting ourselves at risk for Parkinson's disease? Should we consider consuming a DHA supplement such as this one?

Dr. Fuhrman's DHA+EPA Purity is a pure, fresh, all vegan, concentrated liquid. This DHA is derived from algae grown under sanitary laboratory conditions.

[nicoles]

It would seem prudent to take a blood test to determine DHA-deficiency or adequacy. I believe that is rare, yet I am also one of those rare people (so is my father) who do not convert ALA into DHA easily, and so I was deficient when I took that test. I was surprised to say the least, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

I use flax seeds and a similar, vegan algae-derived (cheaper) DHA supplement than the one listed. I also take B12, but again, a test is available to determine B12 deficiency or adequacy.

So, what if one cannot take a blood test? What if, for example, you live in a country with National Health Care and cannot demand blood tests willy nilly without a doctor's consent? What if you truly cannot afford to take non-essential blood tests as per your own nutritional curiosity? It might be a good idea to consider a supplement, or up your intake of flax seeds and walnuts, I suppose.

Parkinson's Disease is a scary illness. A family member in her fifties recently died of it, after experiencing years of it's devastating effects and undergoing many different medical treatments, including brain surgery. I have no idea if she was fatty-acid deficient, but she did work in an agribusiness lab and was exposed to far higher levels of experimental pesticides than the average person. Pesticides are believed to possibly be linked to Parkinson's as well.


I am not a nutritional researcher, so I have to rely on others to explain current research and recommend courses of action. I trust both Dr McDougall and Dr Fuhrman about equally - mostly because my personal experience of things that have helped me have come from both doctors. I play it safe with a supplement because of my unique situation, but I have not seen any evidence that those people who DO convert ALA into DHA correctly need one, although it might be a good idea to eat the seeds and nuts I mentioned as insurance.

[JuicerJohn]

I refuse to alter my nutritional behavior based on the evidence of a single anecdote. If we did that in all cases we would drive ourselves insane in short order.

ETA: I did not realize this until I re-read the original post, but Dr. Fuhrman is apparently hawking his own supplements. That right there makes whatever "evidence" he presents highly suspect.

[Crider]

There was someone on this forum recently that had excessive Omega 3s in her blood and was taking that 'DHA+EPA Purity' supplement. Since Omega 3s are found in all sorts of food, in various amounts, I don't think there's anything to worry about as long as one eats a varied diet.

I do eat flax seed sometimes. Sometimes chia seed. Sometimes I'll crack open a few whole walnuts. Sometimes I won't eat any of those things for a few days. Those oil seeds DO have a lot of calories.

[dteresa]

http://www.cornucopia.org/dha-safety-co ... OgodKDoAZQ

I do not know who makes Fuhrman's DHA supplement. I am sure he is not whipping it up himself in his basement lab. The advice is often for pregnant or lactating women to us DHA and I believe at one time plantpositive may have recommended I use it. I don't. The above might only be information on one brand. But you can see from this that when it comes to DHA everything isn't coming up roses.

I think using DHA should be like using any other drug. Be tested and if you have a need for it use it I guess. On the other hand I have never had a doctor order a DHA level test for me. Is DHA deficiency a common ailment that is causing world wide epidemics of parkinsons? I am quite sure that there are parts of the world, inland from the ocean where fish oil, or fish and certainly not algal oil are consumed. Are they more susceptible to neurological disorders? What about the fish eating countries of northern europe. Are they any more or less healthy? Is there no parkinsons among the seaweed eating Japanese?

I am just about persuaded that I need B12 in supplement form and for a long time ate salmon specifically for the B12 and omega threes. That didn't turn out too well. I still am not comfortable with the dosage size of the B12 supplement and am wary of the claim that doses thousands of times the daily requirement are not harmful. But to add DHA is more than I am ready for at this point.

Regardless of the mice experiments, I am sure there are tens of thousands of past and present parkinsons sufferers who did not get the illness from lack of DHA. My grandmother had parkinsons which she probably got from encephalitis--likely the same thing robert deniro's character had in a movie whose name escapes me. It may or may not have been as a result of the 1917 flu epidemic. She was by no means a vegetarian.

didi

[colonyofcells]

I have looked at the book of Dr Fuhrman the end of dieting and he is spreading scare stories of fat deficiency among high starch low fat vegans like the followers of Dr Esselstyn, about people dropping dead from fat deficiency. I don't believe these fat deficiency stories or protein deficiency stories based on what I know of many traditional diets. Dr Fuhrman is just selling lots of books based on his speculations. I've not heard of people living longer by taking these expensive epa/dha supplements. The longevity blue zones are doing just fine without these expensive epa/dha supplements that Dr Fuhrman is actively selling.

[MikeInFL]

I know that fish get their Omega 3's from algae. Where do cows, giraffes, gorillas get their essential fatty acids? Lots of greens! But they need to eat greens all day long. Maybe we do too.

[baardmk]

Could someone explain to me how you test that you have a poor conversion of ALA? If it only involves measuring levels of various fatty acids in the blood, I doubt it has validity.

We don't need to look at single cases of vegans with health issues to inform ourselves. There's plenty of omnivores, especially in the disadvantaged stratas, getting very little amounts of EPA/DHA in their diet, subsisting to a large degree on chips and cola. They have horrible health statistics overall, but I don't think diseases like Parkinson's stands out in a very disproportionate manner. And if EPA/DHA really was a major issue, we would have more validated stories about how recent vegans came into various health issues because of it. I distrust anything Fuhrman ascertains. If he has real data/science to back up his claims I would like to read it.

[Spiral]

Another point of view offered by Dr. T. Colin Campbell. Dr. Campbell quotes Mark Simon at length.
I guess we have to put all of these arguments, both those in favor of DHA supplementation (and perhaps fish eating) and against DHA supplementation, in proper perspective. I'm still on the fence.

[Katydid]

I was a participant in Dr. Fuhrman's research study on vegans and ALA conversion. I had to send in a blood sample and three menu diaries taken a few weeks apart. I normally use flax, chia and hemp seeds in my daily diet and my conversion rate to EPA was great.

I was listening to an interview with Dr. Fuhrman on the Jazzy Vegetarian podcast (recommended - she has Pam Popper on all the time) yesterday and he was describing the results of this particular study. I believe he mentioned that around 16% of the participants had what he considered dangerously sub-par conversion rates.

I seems to me that if you did blood tests on all American vegans, at least 16% would test sub-par in something - omega-3, zinc, vitamin D, iron, calcium, B12, etc. I imagine that many, if not most, moral vegan are still eating a modified SAD diet and COULD benefit from a few supplements. But those of us in "the know" eating plenty of beans, whole starches, green and yellow veggies, fruit and a few high omega-3 nuts or seeds, are likely just fine with the occasional B12 and maybe a little D in the winter.

Kate

[CHEF AJ]

[quote="Spiral"]I read ChefAJ's post about no longer regularly consuming ground flax seed. She mentioned that weight loss was easier once she made that change.

I was always taking a tablespoon of ground flax and chia daily because I thought you had to, especially if you didn't eat nuts. But I was curious what would happen if I didn't so I did another experiment and when I stopped the seeds I lost another 3 pounds. I don't think 1 tablespoon a day would make a difference in most people's weight but I am hypothyroid (unmedicated) and have a very efficient and slow metabolism. Dr. McDougall says there is no such thing as fatty acid deficiency and that there is no such thing as a no fat diet, as even oats and greens have fat. I don't believe he recommends taking these seeds every day but please don't stop them because I said so. I may go back to them but I would probably do chia because you can make fun things out them like pudding.

[Spiral]

Chef AJ,

I haven't stopped putting one tablespoon of ground flax seed in my oatmeal. But I am experimenting with replacing the brown sugar and maple syrup that I was putting in my oatmeal and using chopped up dates instead.

It's amazing how you can be stuck at a weight for a long time and think that this is just your natural weight.

But then, if you make a change, like eat salad of iceberg lettuce, carrots, radicchio, tomatoes and red onion, along with some low calorie salad dressing (less than 50 calories per tablespoon) before each lunch and each dinner, you can lose more weight without doing any conscious portion control.

This is what I believe Jeff Novick means when he mentions pre-loading with soup and non-starchy vegetables and/or salad.

Now, I think the mistake many Americans make (who have never heard of McDougall, Novick, True North) is that they put a very calorie dense salad dressing on their salads, full of oil, perhaps containing over 100 calories per tablespoon. And they also might add cheese, egg, chicken or ham to their salad. It seems the results would not be same in that case.

As for purchasing Dr. Fuhrman's DHA supplement, I am still holding off on that purchase. I am not convinced that I really need to purchase it in order to minimize my risks for Parkinson's disease. However, my father has a good friend who has Parkinson's disease and it is very scary.

[landog]

I don't add ground flax to any of my food. I don't eat nuts. I don't eat chia. I'll let you know if it leads to a health problem for me.

I would categorize this topic as some of the "minutia" that we seem to discuss ad nauseam.

If you missed this read, it is a really, really good one:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8179#p439044

Stay well,
-dog

[HealthFreak]

This is one of the those subjects that has no clear cut answer, just like Vitamin D. People get very concerned about this issue, including me. I eat chia, flax or nuts most days of the week and sometimes I take an algae based DHA/EPA supplement. I was listened to a Rich Roll podcast last night where he interviewed Dr Greger. They touched briefly on this subject toward the end of the interview. It's worth listening to. Actually the whole podcast with Dr Greger is amazing. He became a plant based doctor because his grand mother was on death's door due to heart disease when she was 65 years old. The doctors said there is nothing more they could do for her and sent her home to die. She went to the Pritikin Center, changed her diet and lived for 31 more years. Dr Greger has 100s of videos at this site and has one on Omega 3s.

http://nutritionfacts.org/

He said during the podcast interview that women seems to be better at converting ALA, because they have to be for reproductive development of the growing brain in the fetus. He said the only slight problems they are finding are in some older men who aren't getting enough omega 3s. He didn't say what the problems were. He also says it wouldn't hurt to supplement with some algae based DHA/EPA. This of course is just one of the many informed opinions on this subject.

[bbq]

If we really prefer not to consume nuts and seeds, simply go for purslane instead:

Common purslane: a source of omega-3 fatty acids and antioxidants.

Dr. Esselstyn also talked (Q&A at the end) about his wife having lots of greens while not consuming nuts and seeds, Ann got tested for omega-3 and the results turned out to be just fine:

http://youtu.be/U1varIImYec

And those supplement hawkers sounded quite fear-based to me, pretty much like fear-based medicine as mentioned in Dr. McDougall's talk from recent ASW:

http://youtu.be/kOfF_r2R8QM

A healthy brain actually requires much more than those EFAs from dietary sources, personally I'd rather listen to Dr. Barnard and follow his relatively comprehensive guidelines:

http://youtu.be/sxtRilvU5s0

http://www.nealbarnard.org/books/brain/

And the haters gotta hate, LOL

http://www.westonaprice.org/thumbs-down-reviews/power-foods-for-the-brain-by-by-neal-barnard