Confused by T. Colin Campbell article

[olindaspider]

Is it too much to ask that one of the 'powers that be' who monitor this board ask Dr. Campbell for a clarification of his current view on the connection between eating saturated fat and heart disease? I'm seriously considering adding vegetarian pizza back to my diet!

Regardless, Campbell is still promotes a whole food, plant based diet. I do not see where a vegetarian pizza fits into that.

[EvanG]

FlowerPower,

There is no right answer regarding whether or not to eat a little nuts, avocado, coconut, or added oil - lets say an ounce of nuts per day or 1 avocado per day. C. Esselstyn says "NO OIL." He says no nuts or avocado if you have heart disease. Many on this board use very strict rules partly because it is easier for them than moderation. McDougall says as much in his videos. I think that he says that he is passionate and can't do moderation (I'm not sure of the exact quotes). Sometimes strict rules are easier to follow than constantly deciding if one more handful is too much. Jeff Novick is pretty clear about nuts and oil, and his popular video is on sale at the moment I think. http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/shopping/dvds/food-diet/oil-to-nuts/. Fuhrman is more favorable to eating more fatty foods if you want to eat salads and don't like starches, but even he is against adding olive oil: http://www.drfuhrman.com/faq/question.aspx?sid=16&qindex=8. So, there is a spectrum of advice of from this group of doctors, but non advocate adding oils. You will see that spectrum reflected in comments on this board, although this board is provided by Dr. McDougall.

Campbell is a nutritionist and is concerned with making accurate statements, but he generally doesn't seem as worried about what advice will be most helpful to give people to get them to succeed. I think that he doesn't have the same experience of watching people get confused about nutritional advice as the other docs, and so he doesn't show the same care in giving clear can't be misinterpreted advice.

Adding oil will not help you lose weight. If your husband adds it while cooking, it will make it harder for you. If he adds just a very little, it might not do much if any harm to your family. If they want to eat avocado and nuts, I would not try to stop them. I eat avocado and nuts myself.

Eating chips, fries, vegan cheese, crackers, and other oily processed foods all of the time is another matter. None of the plant doctors is encouraging that. Only you can decide how much of that to eat as you transition to a healthier diet, but they will make it harder to lose weight and will lower the quality of your diet.

FakeCanadian,
If you are confused about what Campbell thinks of eating cheese, then you are in the middle of a huge bout of wishful thinking. Perhaps you missed the part about animal protein in this article or have forgotten how big a point he makes about Casein in his books, speeches, etc.

[FlowerPower]

EvanG

You pretty much summed up what I"m thinking at this point. I know for my own health I need to cut out the fat and make the effort to eat only whole, unprocessed plant foods. I never got into the fake cheeses and other vegan foods...just a residual potato chip and French fry habit that I'm currently kicking (and the issue of cooking without oil). There is heart disease, cancer, and dementia in my family. I'm obese and have a history of chest pain...there's nothing to fool around with here.

I do have my husbands support (for changing how I'm eating), but at the same time I worry about his health. He has a serious history of heart disease in his family (none of the men have lived passed their early 60s, some have died in their 40s). Because he is thin and his cholesterol is under 200, he hasn't felt the need to change what he eats (although over the past year he has cut out meat and most dairy). So if eating the high fat plant foods really is okay for his heart and won't contribute to developing heart disease, I'm fine with him eating them even if I abstain (for weight loss). He eats a lot of starch and doesn't watch out for added oils (as in store bought hummus or breads) and he really doesn't feel like he needs to be eating completely WFPB because his health seems to be okay.

I"m the one who reads about this stuff (and I watched Forks Over Knives, he didn't) and shares the info. Again, he supports my wanting to improve my health, but really doesn't share my concerns for his own. I had been telling him that low fat was as important a part of the plant based WOE as avoiding animal products, hence my confusion, and my lingering concern. Sometimes it's hard to be the fat, unhealthy one surrounded by skinny people (that's gonna change!)

[FakeCanadian]

FakeCanadian,
If you are confused about what Campbell thinks of eating cheese, then you are in the middle of a huge bout of wishful thinking. Perhaps you missed the part about animal protein in this article or have forgotten how big a point he makes about Casein in his books, speeches, etc.

No, I haven't forgotten Dr. Campbell's arguments about casein, quite the contrary. I would, however, be interested to hear today's Dr. Campbell (his views appear to be evolving based on new science--an example I endeavour to follow) reconcile his thesis in Whole (which I've read and appreciate) with his contention that the particular protein Casein may promote cancer cell growth.

[baardmk]

Flowerpower, I'm heartened by your resolve to do well by you and your husband. Thanks for your account, question and thoughts here. :)

Campbell is trying to establish a new paradigm in the science of health and nutrition. He's a pioneer and a very important voice in the deeply flawed, current un(w)holy trinity of government, science and money. Personally though, I worry that the alternative movements engaged in health issues will misuse his work, overreach and overgeneralise upon his views. Traditional science has still a lot to teach most of us, and we shouldn't base our opinions solely on the work of a few pioneers.

Campbell hasn't been the first or last to show that animal protein seems to be associated with adverse health biomarkers and outcomes. All the major health authorities point the correct way regarding dietary choices. Fruits and vegetables, less fat, less processed. It's not a coincidence, and fat content does matter. That's what the evidence is telling us. To me one doesn't have to doubt that fat content of the diet is very important.

Look "around" you. Do you see vegans outperforming the regular population when it comes to heart disease? Yes, they do, but not by a huge margin. I think vegans eat a little less fat, but not by very much. You could therefore put the significant but not huge reduction down to animal protein, choline, cholesterol etc., but I think a big percentage of the residual cases could be put down to too much fat and calories. Cutting way down on nuts, all or mostly all oils and avocado will probably help cut down both those things.

Maybe you could try a couple of different regiments for a month each and see how the various lipid numbers respond, making a deal with your husband to try different things out, because his and your health is very important to you? I would think a higher fat diet will raise the cholesterol.

[plants-and-carbs]

why the admonitions to avoid oils?

Dietary decisions should be made within the nutrient profile framework of plant-based foods and in the context of whole, intact foods, appropriately low in fat and protein but rich in antioxidants and complex carbohydrates.

Oil is NOT a whole, intact food, NOT low in fat, NOT rich in antioxidants and NOT a complex carbohydrate.

Be well,
-dog

So now, based on this, is he kind of going closer to Fuhrman here with being supportive of a good bit of good nuts and seeds like walnuts, flax seed, almonds, pumpkin seeds etc. From reading this, to me, it actually sounds along the lines of Fuhrman with his philosophy that nuts can't be judged in a negative fashion since they are in fact loaded with healthy things and that nut/seed fat will not cause health problems and he advises people to enjoy more nuts than Mcdougall and Jeff advise.

Any ideas?

[olindaspider]

Dietary decisions should be made within the nutrient profile framework of plant-based foods and in the context of whole, intact foods, appropriately low in fat and protein but rich in antioxidants and complex carbohydrates.

So now, based on this, is he kind of going closer to Fuhrman here with being supportive of a good bit of good nuts and seeds like walnuts, flax seed, almonds, pumpkin seeds etc. From reading this, to me, it actually sounds along the lines of Fuhrman with his philosophy that nuts can't be judged in a negative fashion since they are in fact loaded with healthy things and that nut/seed fat will not cause health problems and he advises people to enjoy more nuts than Mcdougall and Jeff advise.

Any ideas?

I read the above Campbell quote as encompassing both the McDougall diet and the Fuhrman diet, and not more in line with one or the other. Also, he did say "appropriately low in fat", so he is not saying that nuts and seeds are a free for all.

[Joseph65]

Campbell is confusing me. He doesn't come out and say verbally in his talks that he's changed his mind about saturated fat and animal products but his writings AND research in the last few years seems to say so. It isn't only this article that contradicts his earlier conclusions but at least a half dozen studies that have his name attached using his old China study data contradicts most of his earlier conclusions written in that book. I'm wondering if he's had a change of heart about most of his early research and writings?

[olindaspider]

I am confused about the confusion. I do not recall Campbell ever saying anything about saturated fats in the past. His message all along has been about animal products and animal protein, and that has not changed. All that he was talking about in the OP link is that framing the problems about "animal products and animal proteins" as problems with "saturated fat and cholesterol" is wrong.

[joseph]

Campbell is confusing me. He doesn't come out and say verbally in his talks that he's changed his mind about saturated fat and animal products but his writings AND research in the last few years seems to say so. ...

Show us a quote (in context) that shows us what you mean. I just read his last book and found no evidence at all that you have any idea of what you are talking about.

In the final and concluding chapter Campbell talks about his doctoral dissertation on the "greater biological value of animal-based protein" and how his position today is radically different. He says, "... there is no healthier way to eat than a whole food, plant-based diet, without added fat, salt, or refined carbohydrates."

In the same concluding chapter he wrote, " ... The diet is simple: eat whole, plant-based foods, with little or no added oil, salt, or refined carbohydrates like sugar or flour. ..."

Anyone who can read with comprehension and understanding must reject the concern troll posts that claim Dr. Campbell has "gone over to the dark side". Read "Whole: Rethinking the Science of Nutrition" to see how far off base these accusations are.