Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

[Lesliec1]

Last time I tried a McDougall type diet with loads of veggies/fruit included, I noticed the food went right through me. I usually have 1 bowel movement every 2 days, and all of a sudden I was going 3 times a day. My stool was also very loose and was a very pale tan color. Any idea why this may be happening?

This concerned me at first also. My stool looked so anemic and loose! Luckily, I happened to get Dr. M's book on digestion out of the library. I found out that a healthy BM should be pale in color, either tan or even slightly green. The texture should resemble oatmeal. You should also have to go very urgently. I think maybe he even joked about good luck trying to eat McDougall style and hold it in. Wow, that was all news to me! It was a relief to learn all that. So now when it doesn't look exactly like that I say I need to start upping the raw veggies.

Your first question about why so many of us are geezers here: When I was a healthy self-abusing twenty year old, I probably would've eaten paleo or whatever the heck I wanted. Now I'm a sick old bird in my 50's so I must be here. I think a lot of us HAD to find our way to this truly healthy way of eating. My choice was either continue digging my grave with a fork or ... just pass me some more taters.

[JuicerJohn]

Your first question about why so many of us are geezers here: When I was a healthy self-abusing twenty year old, I probably would've eaten paleo or whatever the heck I wanted. Now I'm a sick old bird in my 50's so I must be here. I think a lot of us HAD to find our way to this truly healthy way of eating. My choice was either continue digging my grave with a fork or ... just pass me some more taters.

That's a great turn of phrase, digging my grave with a fork is exactly what I was doing!

As for why many of us are older, perhaps it has something to do with the wisdom that comes with age?

As for this way of eating, tomorrow will be my 1 year anniversary on this site, and I could not be happier! Not only is my weight within 5 pounds of my high school weight (160 lbs, 18.9 BMI) and I am now 61. I have known I needed to exercise for years, but this WOE finally motivated me to get off my butt and do something about it. And, I absolutely LOVE the food!

This will be my WOE 'til I die.

[patty]

Congrats John!!!

Aloha, patty

[eXtremE]

I found out that a healthy BM should be pale in color, either tan or even slightly green.

It will definitely be green if you start eating a lot of greens like kale, turnips, and collards. Trust me on that....

[Hopingthisworks]

Hi Giantsbran,

I have CFS as well. I am older that you (late 30's now) though got sick in my early 20's. I have only been doing this diet for a relatively short time (started transitioning about a year and a half ago, and more strict in the past year). It has helped me a bit, though not as much as I would have liked, but I am glad I did it. You might have a better chance as you are not sick as long as me (I was sick for 14 years before I heard of this diet).

I don't think you need worry too much about weight gain on this diet but you might gain a little initially. You might put up a few pounds (of basically water weight) initially and then plateau, or even lose weight. You might need to alter the calorie density of your food a bit if you either gain weight you don't want, or lose weight you don't want. This is pretty easy to do. Jeff Novick has an article here explaining about calorie density http://www.jeffnovick.com/RD/Articles/E ... ition.html

I have found weight control easier on this diet than anything else I have ever done. I sometimes feel like I am stuffing my face but I don't gain (which would have never happened before). I cannot exercise so weight control is purely by diet. The only times I had gained a few pounds (and it literally was just 1-4 pounds) was when I went on a hormonal contraceptive pill (they are notorious for weight gain) but I came off them for side effect reasons both times and lost the weight again. Some of that weight gain was probably water retention as I felt bloated on them. The other times I gained a little I was eating away from home so not eating the way I normally would (so more calorie dense) and sometimes eating some off-plan foods with added fat. But I just adjust my food a bit if I find I have gained a bit and I lose it again. I wish I had understood calorie density better years ago as I hate calorie counting and it would have suited me better to just adjust the calorie density of meals.

Some people have stomach problems on making dramatic changes to their diet. I wonder if you would do better transitioning more gradually? You might also benefit from an elimination diet at some point. Some people have a problem with nightshade plants [potato (sweet potatoes are in a different family so ok), peppers, aubergines (eggplant), and tomatoes], or also gluten can be a problem for some people (rice, millet and quinoa would be gluten free). I have heard about the FODMAP diet as well but couldn't quite face it at the moment myself. I don't have IBS or any obvious digestive problems.

I have been doing an elimination diet for the past few months and added foods back gradually. I have to say I though I felt a bit better after adding back beans and peas (I am a freak ) and the only food I might have had a negative reaction to so far was potato. I didn't have a reaction to cooked tomatoes though which are in the same plant family, so it is possible the week I ate potatoes I was just having a bad week by coincidence. I will try the potatoes again in a few weeks.

Anyway I don't know if what I have written is of any help. My cholesterol has gone down since I have been doing this diet to a good level and I used to have a lot of cracking in my knees when I bent down which has stopped. This indicates to me that the diet has had some positive background effect even if it is not what I went into it for. I think it has helped me hormonally as well (though if you are male this won't be of help to you ) I am going to stick with the diet partly for the more general health benefits, partly for the weight-control element to it and also ethically it is preferable from an environmental point of view. I hope I might improve a bit more over time as I might just be a slow responder.

[davestill]

I don't think it's very sustainable

Very hard to get enough protein without being able to eat beans and being a low fat vegan. I understand many here think protein is not necessary, but as a former powerlifter and strength athlete, I just don't feel comfortable on a diet where I can't get a minimum of 70 grams in per day. Don't want to loose all the muscle I worked hard for

Please read The Starch Solution - it has an excellent discussion of protein, and many other topics that newcomers need to get their heads around (like supplements). Or check out this article by Dr. McDougall. Quote:

People Require Very Little Protein

The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends that men and women obtain 5% of their calories as protein. This would mean 38 grams of protein for a man burning 3000 calories a day and 29 grams for a woman using 2300 calories a day. This quantity of protein is impossible to avoid when daily calorie needs are met by unrefined starches and vegetables. For example, rice alone would provide 71 grams of highly useable protein and white potatoes would provide 64 grams of protein.

[Jenna]

I don't eat beans, and as a woman eating about 2000 calories a day, I get upwards of 65g of protein, just from sweet potatoes, fruits, and vegetables. You might be amazed how much protein plant foods contain. I was. Try putting a day's worth of food into CRON-o-meter. It will tell you how much of everything you consume. I have never eaten beans in over a year on McDougall and I have gained muscle--not lost it.

It is a huge myth that only beans and animal foods contain protein. My theory is that when we started refining everything and making white flour and all of that, then people started needing other sources of protein, and that is where the protein obsession comes from. But that is just a theory.

Good luck!
Jenna

[zumacraig]

I've attempting this way of eating for a few years and I've had to really learn a lot through implementation. Digestion issues get better within 2 weeks. Also, keeping it simple has worked best for me. For breakfast its a huge bowl of oatmeal with apple sauce. lunch is leftover dinner from night before and dinner is a whole starch (brown rice, potato, etc) a green veg (kale) and some fruit. If I want a snack, which i'm trying not to do, I eat a salad in a pita or some fruit. I tried many ways of tweaking this and that, but finally realized it's easiest, most delicious and practical when I keep it simple. Whole starches/grains and Whole fruits/veg. That's it. Eat till you're full. You'll feel better, no doubt. May not cure everything, but your baseline will be raised. I still struggle with tiredness, anxiety etc. but the diet keeps me feeling fairly good.

[brandonian]

Im a 22 year old and I eat this way. Ive overcome severe health problems.

Il be honest.. Its impossible to truly help you unless you truthfully disclose exactly what you are doing. Like how you are living and what you are eating.

Il list things in order of importance.

1. How many calories are you eating each day from foods such as rice, potatoes, pasta. How many grams of carbohydrates are you eating. Some labels dont give an accurate measure of calories etc.. You can use cronometer.com for this. (Dont count calories etc from lettuce and tomato sauce or stuff like that.) If you are eating lots of fruit then what kind of fruit? Do you know how to know if it is truly ripe? Is it high quality?

2. How many hours of sleep are you getting each night? What time are you getting to bed at and what time are you waking up? Do you have problems falling asleep and staying asleep? Do you wake up feeling refreshed?

3. How much water do you drink each day? How many times are you peeing clear through out the day? What color is your urine? Measuring urine input and output is really the only way that I know of to know if you are truly hydrated.

4. How many minutes/hours of exercise are you getting each day? Do you feel a desire to exercise? What is your heart rate at during exercise?


Ive dealth with anxiety, low energy, depression and shit in the past.

[olindaspider]

I don't think it's very sustainable

Very hard to get enough protein without being able to eat beans and being a low fat vegan. I understand many here think protein is not necessary, but as a former powerlifter and strength athlete, I just don't feel comfortable on a diet where I can't get a minimum of 70 grams in per day. Don't want to loose all the muscle I worked hard for

Just ran across this oldie, but goodie:

[vgpedlr]

I don't think it's very sustainable

With practice, it is easy. Social situations are the most difficult part.

Very hard to get enough protein without being able to eat beans and being a low fat vegan.

Very easy with whole, unprocessed foods. Many here eat very little or no legumes for various reasons.

I understand many here think protein is not necessary

Nobody here thinks protein is unnecessary. It is thoroughly understood as an essential nutrient. Most believe that is highly overated by most people. No special edfort is needed to get protein. 70 grams a day is very easy. Don't take my words for it, run the numbers and see for yourself.

Don't want to loose all the muscle I worked hard for

Exercise, not protein intake is what preserves muscle. If you are "nearly bedridden with CFS" how do you plan to maintain this muscle? Perhaps focusing on regaining health without worrying about muscle is the wise thing to do. Any muscle you lose can be regained once your basic health is restored.

[Hopingthisworks]

Hi Brandonian, unfortunately I think most of those questions are not really relevant to the original poster's problem. I don't think he needs to count carbs and I didn't get the impression that he was overweight (sorry if I missed something there).

I do think the Chronometer idea is good if anyone is worried about not getting enough nutrients, though I agree with the others that it is surprising the amount of protein that is in vegetables even without beans. Someone posted a link here recently about a body builder and an article about protein needs of body builders. I will have a look for it. It was very interesting as it went through some of the science and showed that high protein was unnecessary and of no benefit even to a body builder (as there was a limit on how much the body could utilise effectively).

It is a different sort of exhaustion with CFS than anxiety and depression, and in some ways the conditions are like polar opposites. So for example people with CFS will normally have high motivation and normal self esteem, unlike a person with depression who will often have low motivation and low self esteem (I'm not blaming them for this, it is characteristic of the condition, but does mean they need to be managed differently). Most importantly exercise can help someone with depression feel better, but exercise will often make a CFS person worse. People with CFS have an abnormal exercise response and can relapse really badly from even minor activity (there is a info box on page 10 here pointing out some of the oddities http://www.mefmaction.com/images/storie ... erview.pdf I'm not expecting anyone to read that , just posting it in case it is of use to anyone). I know this is difficult to understand and I probably wouldn't get it myself if I hadn't got the illness (and I still find it weird and hard to understand ) Pacing is usually more helpful for people with CFS.

I agree with what vgpedlr said, and I thought it when I read giants posts originally, when he said in reply to

Don't want to loose all the muscle I worked hard for

vgpedlr: Exercise, not protein intake is what preserves muscle. If you are "nearly bedridden with CFS" how do you plan to maintain this muscle? Perhaps focusing on regaining health without worrying about muscle is the wise thing to do. Any muscle you lose can be regained once your basic health is restored.

I think this is very good advice. Too many people with CFS can worry about things like losing muscle mass and often end up making themselves worse (and able to do less) by trying to exercise when they are not fit to do it. A lot of the sickest patients I know did not start off that way but ended up there through exercise programmes or pushing themselves through the exhaustion (unfortunately sometimes on advice from medical professionals).

I know it is frustrating having built up to a certain level of exercise, or skill in some area, only to have to go backwards for a bit because of not being able to exercise the skill. But in the greater scheme of things it is not as important as overall health and if a person can improve that then they can go back to their hobbies/jobs when their health improves.

Anyway maybe you know all this Giantsbran I used to exercise a few hours a day (mostly walking) before I got sick so I do miss it a lot, but at this stage I would be happy to lead a more normal life and get out of the house a bit more, even without the exercise.

I hope you manage to stick with the diet for a while, or work out what might be making you feel worse. I think having bowel movements a few times a day is good and normal bye the way so I wouldn't read anything negative into it though it might feel odd for a while.

[dteresa]

https://www.google.com/#q=vegan+bodybuilders

here is a page I googled for vegan body builders. take a look and see if they are lacking protein.

didi

[dstewart]

Hey guys first post here.

I'm 22 and have been dealing with chronic fatigue syndrome for a year now and am basically bedridden. In my efforts to overcome this debilitating condition which has deteriorated my health in many ways, I have gotten very into nutrition.

For the past few years I have been eating a fairly strict paleo diet and have gotten involved with the paleo community. I notice that it tends to be people who are younger, into crossfit and similar programs.... I have just recently gotten into McDougalls work and I notice it tends to be people much older. I very rarely see many young people/athletes who talk about eating McDougall's diet, while there are TONS of athletes who preach Paleo.

Now I am in no way bashing this community or John McDougall. It's just an observation I have made and was curious if you guys can offer up some theories as too why this is the case. Thanks!

1. Ease. You've been eating meat all your life (22 years, 32 years, whatever it's been so far), and paleo seems like what you've been eating minus a little minor portion (whatever grains your particular paleo guru or your particular paleo reasoning tells you weren't eaten by cavemen; there's a paleo for those who want to eat anything at all--paleo wheat, paleo oats, paleo rice, paleo eggs, whatever, without any consistency or scientific accuracy) of vegetables, and hey, meat is the center of your diet anyway. Easy to do that, plus any food can be said to be paleo, so it's infinitely flexible.
2. Fashion. It's so cool! It gets great shows, great magazine articles, cool apps, great book covers.
3. It's hyper-masculine for guys who are more metrosexual. "I'm a meat eater, I'm a caveman."
4. A desensitized olfactory faculty. Come on. Eat paleo, you end up stinking. You [not you personally; paleo dieters] can't smell your breath, but I assure you, everyone you talk to at a distance of less than 8 feet can, and buddy, you are rank. But you don't know that. (Oh, just use these PALEO BREATH MINTS. Just like the ones that paleolithic man ate after eating the elk.)

McDougall is a doctor, and his way of eating, while it can be and could be a way of eating for everyone at all stages of life, has been found by so many needing to remedy the ravages of eating "normally," and something much closer to paleo than to the McDougall way. People have some years on them and damage that has accumulated gradually until a tipping point is reached and there's a real illness. (This is not every case, but many, as you are noting.) But it's a real sharp-angle change, so it's not easy, it's not fashionable, it's not macho.

All it is, is real and genuinely healthful. Where's the cool in that?

[dstewart]

Thanks Patty.

True I came into this disease while I was eating paleo.... However, I have tried both McDougall's diet along with other vegan diets like 80/10/10, Nutritarian, etc... I couldn't last on any of them for longer than a week. My cognitive functioning plummeted, anxiety skyrocketed, digestion was a mess, and most of my CFS symptoms were exacerbated.

So it appears that right now paleo is the best fit for me.

You're blaming your body's alleged wisdom for what is actually just your mind's discomfort with change of habit.

Right now, and any time, paleo is not a best fit for anyone, if it's about healthfulness. It's what you enjoy and isn't too abrupt (or any) change of habit to you.