Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

[astronaut23]

Last time I tried a McDougall type diet with loads of veggies/fruit included, I noticed the food went right through me. I usually have 1 bowel movement every 2 days, and all of a sudden I was going 3 times a day. My stool was also very loose and was a very pale tan color. Any idea why this may be happening?

You probably would/should have a bowel movement every day when eating an adequate amount of fiber. I do and I'm not worried in the least. To the contrary the constipation that people have eating the pathetically low in plant fiber SAD is not the norm. Eating plants is a moving experience.

[patty]

The main reason IMO is healthy young ppl don't get sick from eating too much of the wrongs foods until they are much older. Then, they get on the information (google) highway and discover this WOE in an effort to better their health condition.

That is the correct answer. The notion that droves of young people are on McDougall's plan but are "in school and have an intense social life" is not one I agree with. You'd still see those people represented on web forums, etc., but they're not, for the reason eXtremE indicates. Eating is a social activity, and it takes an incredible amount of will power to completely cut out meat, cheese, etc., especially when you are younger and not cooking for yourself. So young people eat those things, and when there's no instant repercussions, there's no motivation to stop. Paleo takes discipline too, but it's easier to follow. I'm thankful that I have time and resources to cook for myself.

You probably haven't been to any young peoples 12 Step meetings. These meetings are world wide. They are given a program of application to deal with life on life's terms. They experience a anarchy of authority because they know they have been lied today by a culture that puts profit before people. In working a 12 Step Program they learn to put principles before personalities as there is a difference between cash register honesty and emotional. They learn to network from meetings, and that is what keeps them working within the social culture. They know the power of a clean body, mind and socially. Jeff Novick Fast Food dvds show how timeless and expense less it is easy to prepare meals. The key ingredient being SATIETY through starches has been identified by Dr. McDougall.

It took awhile for NA to follow AA, as OA is the last to follow. Dr. McDougall has connected the addiction dominos with food and money. In 12 Step program you learn to identify vs. compare addictions because everyone is cross addicted. We are all transparent being the ultimate addiction of course is "Me" the part of myself that gets caught in the story of I am separate and seeking a object to make me whole. Age is non relative to addictions, as the path is the same. And at the same time I will say for myself WFPB has a deep learning curve, but change is happening and it is happening with our youth. Just because you don't see them on these forums don't think they aren't out there. Look at Dr. McDougall's children and Dr. Fuhrman's children as of course RIck, Dr. Esselstyn's son. The message is out. And it is like the Sun you can't hold it back. Addiction is a disease where you don't have to hit bottom, it is like a elevator where you can get off any floor.

Aloha, patty

[Jenna]

Welcome! I am a 30-year-old former Paleo follower, turned McDougaller over a year ago. I can relate to you on a number of issues. I had IBS and SIBO that was really bad when I was Paleo. It improved within a month of McDougalling, and then for another reason, I took a round of clindamycin, and now I am 90% better. McDougalling was a big improvement, but it took time before my digestion improved.

One thing that encouraged be to come over here from Paleo was the "potato hack." Have you heard of this? It is pretty big in the Paleo world (I think there is a 100-page thread on Mark's Daily Apple on the potato hack). Anyway, the idea is eat all potatoes and nothing else, no oil, maybe a little salt or seasonings, for about 10 days. Paleo people typically report huge weight loss and many other improvements over those 10 days. I decided to try something like that (I ate some green veggies, too), and I felt awesome. Then I went back to eating meat, and I felt horrible. This stomach ache that I always had on Paleo and that went away on the potato hack suddenly came back, and I wanted nothing to do with meat or oil anymore. Then I found out that there is a whole world of people basically doing the potato hack (with more variety) for life! So I decided to give it a try.

As far as poop goes, I poop a lot more on this diet and my poop does resemble my food. It doesn't seem to have caused any problems as far as health goes.

As far as your symptoms go, I would suggest transitioning slowly from your current diet to a diet more like this and see what happens. It may be a shock to your system to go from high fat to low fat all of a sudden. Also, if you have issues with grains, they are not necessary. I don't eat any grains. Sweet potatoes are paleo, so how about eat more of those? Potatoes are sort of paleo, so how about eat more of those? You don't have to eat grains to do this diet.

As far as fat gain goes, most people find this food is WAY more satisfying than high-fat food, so you end up eating fewer calories, even though you eat more food volume. That is how weight loss happens.

Good luck with whatever you decide, and I wish you the best with your CFS.
Jenna

[Giantsbran]

LOL

Yes, I had literally the exact same experience. Came across the potato hack thread on Marksdailyapple and did it for a few weeks. Was shocked at how good I felt.

Thanks for the response. Going to give this a go. I'll let you guys know how things turn out.

Do you mind Jenna if I ask what differences you have noted in terms on body composition? One thing that still turns me off about this diet is the amount of carbs that are eaten and my current inability to exercise. Seems like it would create a pretty big spillover and get stored as fat.... Not interested in losing any weight, cant afford to lose much more. Doing this more to see if it will help me out health wise.

[Jenna]

In terms of body composition, I have lost fat and gained muscle. I didn't/don't have much to lose--always have been within the normal range for my height (starting BMI was around 22, now around 20 with more muscle). Also I exercise a lot. I am certain I wouldn't have gained the muscle without the exercise. The thing about gaining fat is that you have to be hypercaloric--meaning you have to eat excess calories beyond what you need in a day. Most people find it difficult to do that eating only plain starches and vegetables with nothing on them. But it will also depend on your current BMI. Many on this board (myself included) fluctuate in the normal weight range based on the calorie density of the food they eat. More green veggies, weight goes down. More starches, weight goes up. So it might depend where you are starting. If your BMI is 18.5, you might gain by eating lots of starches. If you are overweight, your weight will probably go down. One thing to note is that you will probably gain a few pounds in the first several days or week. This is the weight of the food and fiber in your bowel, increased glycogen and water stores, etc. It happens to most people, and many get very concerned. Just be assured, a few pounds at first is not fat, so don't be alarmed.

Good luck! Keep us posted!
Jenna

[eXtremE]

That is the correct answer. The notion that droves of young people are on McDougall's plan but are "in school and have an intense social life" is not one I agree with. You'd still see those people represented on web forums, etc., but they're not, for the reason eXtremE indicates. Eating is a social activity, and it takes an incredible amount of will power to completely cut out meat, cheese, etc., especially when you are younger and not cooking for yourself. So young people eat those things, and when there's no instant repercussions, there's no motivation to stop. Paleo takes discipline too, but it's easier to follow. I'm thankful that I have time and resources to cook for myself.

Absolutely correct! Yeah, the last thing these kids have on their minds is healthy vegan eating right now. You are right about the Paleo diet too. It is better than SAD and easier to follow than a strict McD or Ess or Fuhrman. Even following them strictly after the taste buds adapt, for many ppl, it it still a struggle but is doable, esp. if you can get a big health improvement payoff.

If OTOH these strict PB diets promise radiant health and they don't deliver on that promise after ppl follow them strictly for a while, you are then far more likely to start to have doubts if this is the right, optimal diet for you. I really think these diets can work best the younger you start them bf you become sick. Trouble is you can't convince most young healthy ppl of this.

After you have become sick, really sick in some cases, a PB diet may improve your health condition but maybe not to the degree that you would like.

[RockNRoll]

Welcome to the forum! I'm 30 years old, and have been following the vegan/ McDougall program for a few years now. Frankly, I wish I had found out about this earlier.

I deal with fatigue caused by cancer... I got testicular cancer in 2010 which required surgery, radiation, and chemo. Then, because of all of the harsh treatments, I developed leukemia. I'm currently 1 year and 8 months in remission from my first cancer, and am easily managing my leukemia with daily oral medication. I have some residual lasting effects from all of the treatments, scans, blood work, bone marrow biopsy, etc., but I have a great family, a wonderful girlfriend, and some rad friends in my life. So I'm a pretty lucky fella.

I personally love this way of eating. And there are a lot of aspects of it that has mass appeal to people of all ages. It's great for people who advocate for the environment, it's great for people who advocate for animal welfare, it's great for people who are health enthusiasts... even celebrities endorse it (I just discovered that Samuel L. Jackson eats this way). Plus, it's a bit rebellious in nature, since we're "bucking the unhealthy trend" of our parents and peers. Plant-based diets are also becoming trendy these days, with more and more works of film/ literature advocating it.

But I personally feel better from it. The first perk I noticed was that my acne disappeared just from getting rid of the dairy. So it was a great incentive to stick with it. And after a period of time, I found myself not wanting animal foods or greasy oil anymore. I don't even view it as food now- it's just extra junk in the grocery store that I barely register consciously anymore. I will happily never go back to eating the Standard American Diet again.

As for fatigue, I've found that DDP Yoga has been awesome for it. I read a few studies on how breast cancer survivors improved their fatigue issues with a few months of yoga. So I gave it a try, and it's been great. I'm a few weeks in, and my fatigue is better, my mood is great, and because it's a butt-kick, it's improving my cardio, flexibility, balance, and core strength as well. DDP Yoga removed the spiritual stuff that regular yoga has, and combines yoga with rehabilitation moves. It also focuses on 'Dynamic Resistance', which means to flex your muscles while doing the poses. Seriously, you're just standing there and you're out if breath. It's awesome. And it's low/ zero impact, so it doesn't damage your joints. This, along with McDougalling, has greatly improved my health.

Hopefully you're able to ditch the Paleo diet and discover some great go-to dishes to keep you satisfied on this way of eating. If I was told I had to avoid potatoes, beans, rice, pasta, bread, pitas, etc., I'd probably go clinically nuts. Long-live starches.

[Giantsbran]

Thanks rock.

Ive been doing this for 24 hours and already am noticing the same issues that happened to me last time.

My digestion is a mess, massive bloat, brain fog, etc.... Is this considered normal when moving from a mostly meat/high fat/protein diet to mcdougalls? How long should I expect this phase to last if at all?

I've been eating potatoes, beans, fruit, and rice.

[davestill]

So, you are eating *just* potatoes, beans, fruit, and rice? These are normal foods that even most SAD eaters get some of, so I can't believe they would cause a problem if eaten in reasonable portion sizes. And, after only a day, you are definitely not 'short' on anything from your normal diet (a well-fed SAD eater could go weeks on only water). Maybe your metabolism needs adjusting from a diet utterly devoid of some of those foods, and your gut organisms are playing catch-up?

[Jenna]

I meant to mention this before--so sorry I forgot--but if you have IBS/SIBO, you probably also need to eat a low-FODMAPs diet (google it). Beans, in particular, really mess me up. There are probably other fruits and veggies that you need to avoid as well. I would suggest going back to the diet you were eating before, then add one new food at a time and that way you can see what is causing the problem. As far as the digestive issues and bloat go, you may have to live with that for a couple of weeks. You will get different gut bacteria with a different diet, so while that develops, you may be a little more uncomfortable. But definitely check out FODMAPs if you don't already know about them. They are a crucial step in helping IBS and SIBO.

Hope that helps!
Jenna

[olindaspider]

Thanks rock.

Ive been doing this for 24 hours and already am noticing the same issues that happened to me last time.

My digestion is a mess, massive bloat, brain fog, etc.... Is this considered normal when moving from a mostly meat/high fat/protein diet to mcdougalls? How long should I expect this phase to last if at all?

I've been eating potatoes, beans, fruit, and rice.

If you haven't watched this before, watch Doug Lisle's TEDxFremont talk on The Pleasure Trap. It explains why one feels awful when weaning from a mostly meat, high fat, protein diet.

[baardmk]

I second Jenna's advice. Potatoes (without peel, maybe) is probably not bad, but beans are probably problematic, apples are really bad, and bananas probably OK. Rice is probably one of the best grains you could have chosen.
Check out a list with FODMAP, and choose only amongst the low category.

Don't be afraid of having a restricted diet for a week or two. It takes a long time for your body to run low on minerals and vitamins. And if you're diet is mainly tubers + a fruit + a vegetable your diet will be complete with all the nutrients you need (except B12).

[eXtremE]

I never felt the bad food to good food "food withdrawal" that Lisle talks about in the pleasure trap. I simply starting eating less food because the PB foods are not addictive IMO and don't cause you to overeat. I started to drop weight immediately and the diet did cure my constipation right away.

[Giantsbran]

I don't think it's very sustainable

Very hard to get enough protein without being able to eat beans and being a low fat vegan. I understand many here think protein is not necessary, but as a former powerlifter and strength athlete, I just don't feel comfortable on a diet where I can't get a minimum of 70 grams in per day. Don't want to loose all the muscle I worked hard for

[JuicerJohn]

I may have missed, why can't you eat beans? If it is because they are causing bloat, chances are good that is only temporary. Once your intestinal flora has adjusted to a high starch diet you should be fine. Also, if you are not already, rinse your beans before using them in whatever food you are preparing.

If you really can't eat beans and are concerned with protein, check out quinoa. Quinoa has much higher protein than other grains and might be just what you are looking for.