Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

Moderators: JeffN, f1jim, John McDougall, carolve, Heather McDougall

Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

Postby Giantsbran » Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:34 pm

Hey guys first post here.

I'm 22 and have been dealing with chronic fatigue syndrome for a year now and am basically bedridden. In my efforts to overcome this debilitating condition which has deteriorated my health in many ways, I have gotten very into nutrition.

For the past few years I have been eating a fairly strict paleo diet and have gotten involved with the paleo community. I notice that it tends to be people who are younger, into crossfit and similar programs.... I have just recently gotten into McDougalls work and I notice it tends to be people much older. I very rarely see many young people/athletes who talk about eating McDougall's diet, while there are TONS of athletes who preach Paleo.

Now I am in no way bashing this community or John McDougall. It's just an observation I have made and was curious if you guys can offer up some theories as too why this is the case. Thanks!
Giantsbran
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:28 pm

Re: Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

Postby patty » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:32 am

There is a wide range of people of all ages that are WFPB. I imagine why you don't see a lot of young people posting is because they are going to school/employed and have a intensive social life that involves their lifestyle with school/work. Eating WFPB opens doors you that you have never dreamed of opening. Food and money is no longer like musical chairs, they equate to health where there is enough for everyone. You will resonate a whole new currency from the basis of cooperation from a WFPB vs. Paleo, a lifestyle of competition which is driven from the biological metabolic dollar of fat and oil.

I would ask what does your body tell you? Your body is your best ally. It doesn't lie. If you have been eating a fairly strict Paleo diet for the last couple of years and have been dealing with chronic fatigue syndrome for a year now and are basically bedridden. I would say you have done enough research on what doesn't work. We reside in the best labs there are. And just look at the environment. WFPB is in harmony with the environment not in competition of a old style belief only the strong will survive. In "The Starch Solution" Dr. McDougall shares all plants survive being starch based. Look around you and see how many people you know are in denial of the effects fat and oil? The only place you have to go it Up:)

WFPB has a very deep learning curve. Food addiction is a body, mind and social addiction. Denial is the nature of the disease. Addiction is a disease that tells you that you don't have a disease. Food and money are the last two seats on the addiction bus and those seats are interchangeable because you have to sit in them on a daily basis. You can go to any 12 Step meeting and just change the name of the gateway drug. The only requirement is the desire not to use the gateway drug. There are dances, round ups and conventions. And of course daily face to face meeting around the clock.

Hope you will stay around... Aloha, patty
patty
 
Posts: 6977
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:46 am

Re: Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

Postby Giantsbran » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:57 am

Thanks Patty.

True I came into this disease while I was eating paleo.... However, I have tried both McDougall's diet along with other vegan diets like 80/10/10, Nutritarian, etc... I couldn't last on any of them for longer than a week. My cognitive functioning plummeted, anxiety skyrocketed, digestion was a mess, and most of my CFS symptoms were exacerbated.

So it appears that right now paleo is the best fit for me.
Giantsbran
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:28 pm

Re: Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

Postby vgpedlr » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:09 am

Dr. McDougall has been teaching the same program for over 35 yrs. It does attract an older crowd of people who are fed up with being sick and tired and want to regain their health. With some individualized tweaking, time, and adherence , they do. It is not fashionable or trendy as Paleo certainly is right now, especially for athletes. But there are plenty of very athletic people here. The discussions don't tend toward athletic pursuits often, but we are still here. The McDougall program is based on traditional diets of people like the Kenyans, the world's fastest distance runners. Or the Tarahumara, an ancient Native American tribe that built ultra running into their culture. Or the Okinawans, legendary martial artists. But health and fitness are not the same thing, though they are related. You can have incredible strength, or endurance, or whatever, and be rapidly progressing with chronic disease. Health, not physical feats are more valued here.

Ten years ago I read Loren Cordain's Paleo book for athletes which he co-wrote with legendary coach Joe Friel. I tried it for awhile. Confusing and a total fail. But back in the 80s, lots of athletes were into the work of McDougall and Pritikin. What I know about athletes is that we will try anything for an edge. Paleo is only a few years old, and is a definite improvement over the SAD. When you're young you can get away with a lot. But for long term health, I doubt Paleo will work for very many.

If you are bedridden with CFS in your 20s, Paleo does not appear to be working for you. Who cares what the crossfit folks are doing? Maybe it's time to give WFPB low fat a try?
User avatar
vgpedlr
 
Posts: 4502
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:17 pm
Location: NorCal

Re: Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

Postby indy107 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:08 am

Giantsbran wrote:Thanks Patty.

True I came into this disease while I was eating paleo.... However, I have tried both McDougall's diet along with other vegan diets like 80/10/10, Nutritarian, etc... I couldn't last on any of them for longer than a week. My cognitive functioning plummeted, anxiety skyrocketed, digestion was a mess, and most of my CFS symptoms were exacerbated.

So it appears that right now paleo is the best fit for me.


There is usually a 'detox' period when switching to a WFPB diet. It's your body's way of getting used to new(er) nutrients and getting rid of toxins that we have built up for years eating SAD. I've heard the symptoms range from bloating/gas/headaches to full blown all out flu.
For tons of healthy Plant-Based, McDougall Friendly Recipes, check out my blog at :

https://www.brandnewvegan.com.
User avatar
indy107
 
Posts: 624
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:41 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

Postby patty » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:39 am

Giantsbran wrote:Thanks Patty.

True I came into this disease while I was eating paleo.... However, I have tried both McDougall's diet along with other vegan diets like 80/10/10, Nutritarian, etc... I couldn't last on any of them for longer than a week. My cognitive functioning plummeted, anxiety skyrocketed, digestion was a mess, and most of my CFS symptoms were exacerbated.

So it appears that right now paleo is the best fit for me.


Have you read Dr. McDougall's Digestive Tune-Up? In essence practicing a WFPB diet, is eating for digestion. Again the body doesn't lie. Meat, poultry or fish don't fiber, their skeleton is the fiber. Potatoes, grains and legumes are like the broom of the digestive system. Cognitive thinking, becomes clearer as you are no longer cognitively distancing from what you are eating. Anxiety disappears because when you are aligned with nature you become aligned. CFS would become lighter because you would automatically be lighter, body, mind and socially.

We all seek pleasure and avoid pain. That is why we are fascinated with unrequited love. That is why someone can come to this sight and miss what has been always with them in all ways. WFPB is your divine inheritance. As a young doctor, Dr. McDougall's health required him to look around his environment for answers. He was a plantation doctor in the Big Island of Hawaii. What he noticed was the 1st generations Asians, were healthier than the 2nd and 3rd. Why? Because they were still eating WFPB.

Stick around as they say in AA, bring the body and the mind will follow. I tell you fat and oil has kicked my butt:) Who would have thought:) Dr. McDougall is the epitome of kindness because he created these forums for people with conditions like CFS... because there is a lot of yets out there because again we live in a culture of denial. We are here to support you, and if you want to do more research that's Ok. What is that in the Matrix, you can take the red or the blue pill?

Aloha, patty
patty
 
Posts: 6977
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:46 am

Re: Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

Postby eXtremE » Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:36 am

Giantsbran wrote:Hey guys first post here.

I'm 22 and have been dealing with chronic fatigue syndrome for a year now and am basically bedridden. In my efforts to overcome this debilitating condition which has deteriorated my health in many ways, I have gotten very into nutrition.

For the past few years I have been eating a fairly strict paleo diet and have gotten involved with the paleo community. I notice that it tends to be people who are younger, into crossfit and similar programs.... I have just recently gotten into McDougalls work and I notice it tends to be people much older. I very rarely see many young people/athletes who talk about eating McDougall's diet, while there are TONS of athletes who preach Paleo.

Now I am in no way bashing this community or John McDougall. It's just an observation I have made and was curious if you guys can offer up some theories as too why this is the case. Thanks!


The main reason IMO is healthy young ppl don't get sick from eating too much of the wrongs foods until they are much older. Then, they get on the information (google) highway and discover this WOE in an effort to better their health condition. Mostly formally sick ppl and currently sick ppl are the ones trying to eat like this and these people are usually (but not always) older. Very few ppl will commit to eating this way for purely ethical reasons. You came here for example bc of your CFS.
On 7/8/2013, I decided to change my diet to a "mostly" WFPB diet. I have always been somewhat lean and muscular due to being a lifelong exerciser. Change in diet due to feeling crummy all the time despite a healthy outward appearance. Image
User avatar
eXtremE
 
Posts: 3525
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:05 am

Re: Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

Postby veg tom » Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:58 am

what worked for me was 4 weeks on the plan. That is what hooked me.
I felt great but I was not sick when started. After 4 weeks I knew this was it and never looked back.
A is A
veg tom
 
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:23 pm
Location: st clair shores mi

Re: Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

Postby dteresa » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:45 am

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2014/01/c ... video.html

The above is a video on leaky gut syndrome. It sounds to me like whatever your diet, paleo, mcdougall, etc. you need an elimination diet. Because maybe something you are eating is making you sick and eating more of it will make you more sick. Perhaps there is something you are eating on the McD diet that you either do not eat or eat a lot less of on the paleo diet. Eliminating this might allow you to recover your health. Whatever your woe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tJyb1wTxg4

Dr. Klaper also has the above video on why people fail on a vegan diet. Apparently --he is only speculating mind you---the environment of your gut changes with a high meat diet. Perhaps you have read all over the news lately about TMAO which meat eaters have a problem with but vegans do not. He also says that when you eat a lot of meat your body does not need to produce certain substances like carnitine because you get it from the meat you eat. Much like humans do not produce vitamin c in their bodies because we get it from the environment but cows, who do not get it from the environment, do produce their own C. So if you are a big meat eater and suddenly go off meat, it is possible you would feel really bad because your body has stopped making its own carnitine. I think he might present a solution to this. I am also wondering if what must be an enormously expensive live in program like the water fast at True North would clear up any problems you have more quickly than if you tried it on your own.

I have a daughter with fibromyalgia. I think this and your chronic fatigue sound a lot like the same thing and I think that no one really knows what causes either one. I most sincerely hope you find a solution to this debilitating problem.

didi
dteresa
 
Posts: 3735
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:22 am

Re: Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

Postby Giantsbran » Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:50 am

Thanks for all the help guys.

I am willing to give this lifestyle another shot. Do I feel good on the paleo lifestyle? No. But again, whenever I tried a HCLF vegan plan, things turned even worse for me.

How long before I should start seeing an improvement? Is the detox I go through a normal experience? I have SIBO and am sure I have a bad case of candida as well. I have always been told that carbs feed these and make things worse.

Also, due to my CFS I am unable to exercise at all. Wouldnt eating a massive amount of carbs lead to significant fat gain in this instance?

I've been drinking "paleo filtered" koolaid for a long time, so forgive me if these questions seem misguided, it's what I've been taught all these years.
Giantsbran
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:28 pm

Re: Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

Postby baardmk » Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:35 am

I salute you for wanting to try a HCLF-diet again.

Maybe you can detail what exactly you ate while on HCLF. Maybe people can suggest possible issues with what you did then. I second the suggestion to buy the "Digestive Tune-up". It's a great book. Personally, though, I've learnt more from reading about other people's experiences on McDougall's site and forum and doing various elimination diets to hone in on my issues.

Keep your diet simple. This has many advantages, but given your problems, it may be easier to pinpoint what's good for you, and what's not.

Given your problems, I'd suggest focusing tubers as your main calorie staple, like sweet potatoes or potatoes. They should do your digestion good. If you want to have grains, rice is least likely to cause issues.

Some of my IBS-like symptoms have come if I've eaten A) some grains* (not rice) B) skins of tubers OR C) too many of certain vegetables, typically high FODMAP.
* this is an over-generalizations, really. Right now, I eat lots of grains, but the way it's processed seems to be quite important. Always cook the hell out of them.
There's no need to demonize grains, like the paleo crowd does, but on the other hand, you don't need to have any of them either, in a starch-centered diet, HCLF.

You may want to get the faulty kool-aid out of your system. The paleo-diet is founded on faulty assumptions of what people ate way back. It's based on a cultural and male-chauvinist preconceptions, not really on hard science by people in the field. See for example a TED-talk on the paleo diet. Or watch McDougall's very excellent talk "The Starch Solution" on YouTube. I think the science is pretty clear that people in our evolutionary past have subsisted mainly on starch calories. Our capacity to digest starch is second to none, and I don't think this adaptation happened 10 thousand years ago with agriculture.
User avatar
baardmk
 
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:53 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

Postby lilypad » Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:11 am

I have Ehlers Danlos syndrome and symptoms of CFS. I have low muscle tone and loose unstable joints and generally feel tired and terrible. Since starting this WOE I have more energy and am able to tolerate my condition better. Most people with my condition have some degree of CFS.

I used to have Hughes syndrome, which is an auto-immune disorder which causes the blood to be 'too sticky'. This was causing me fatigue, headaches, poor memory. I was due to be on anticoagulants, but luckily I came across this WOE and my bloodwork is now normal.

These are things that have helped me immensely with energy and wellbeing-

Eliminating dairy (I was already vegetarian)
Eating loads of starch
Eliminating gluten- I eat quinoa, rice, brown rice spaghetti, millet, GF oats, buckwheat, corn
Taking 1tsp of turmeric a day
Taking aloe vera juice
Taking 5HTP
You should give Pilates a go. I have very low muscle tone, naturally, so any high impact exercise is painful and damages my joints and I just don't have the muscle strength to do it. But I do Pilates which I love, it builds up core strength which protects me against further joint damage, and makes me feel more stable and strong. I also use an exercise bike, as it doesn't require full weight on my joints. This is what my physio recommends I do.

I found giving up gluten helped a lot. I feel less tired and a bit stronger. Lots of people with Ehlers Danlos are gluten intolerant and find it helps their condition if they eliminate it.
lilypad
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:29 am
Location: UK

Re: Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

Postby viv » Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:34 am

Welcome Giantsbran to the McDougall Discussion Board.
There are many wonderful people from all over the world who will help and support you on your journey. We all have our stories of why we are here and how the McDougall plan has improved our health and quality of life. Under the education tab go down to Success Stories and you will find many inspiring examples.

This diet is based on starches. Keep it simple to begin with. First choose a starch you like (I like potatoes) and base your meals around it. So choose a breakfast, lunch and dinner and snacks that you enjoy. I have two sons around your age, so although they are not strictly WFPB I know what foods they love. Here's an example.

Breakfast: Large bowl of oatmeal with 1T flaxmeal, cinnamon & honey.
Lunch: One or more potatoes zapped in microwave with salsa and spinach (use canned or frozen)
Dinner: More potatoes and veg. My sons love oven fries (cooked dry, no oil) they turn out great; simply slice potatoes and stick in the oven at 375 for 20 mins then turn over for about another 10 mins....yummy with ketchup, salsa etc.
Snacks: Fruit, potatoes, veggie sticks etc.
If you don't have any weight to lose you can add more fruit, raisins, avocado, nuts etc.

Please remember, no added oils or fats, sugar and salt sprinkled on food for flavoring if you like, no processed foods. DON'T DRINK THE KOOL-AID!

Best of luck to you.
Viv
5'8", Started March 2013
Starting weight: 217
Current weight: 157
60lbs gone--for good!
User avatar
viv
 
Posts: 1622
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

Postby Giantsbran » Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:44 am

lilypad wrote:I have Ehlers Danlos syndrome and symptoms of CFS. I have low muscle tone and loose unstable joints and generally feel tired and terrible. Since starting this WOE I have more energy and am able to tolerate my condition better. Most people with my condition have some degree of CFS.

I used to have Hughes syndrome, which is an auto-immune disorder which causes the blood to be 'too sticky'. This was causing me fatigue, headaches, poor memory. I was due to be on anticoagulants, but luckily I came across this WOE and my bloodwork is now normal.

These are things that have helped me immensely with energy and wellbeing-

Eliminating dairy (I was already vegetarian)
Eating loads of starch
Eliminating gluten- I eat quinoa, rice, brown rice spaghetti, millet, GF oats, buckwheat, corn
Taking 1tsp of turmeric a day
Taking aloe vera juice
Taking 5HTP
You should give Pilates a go. I have very low muscle tone, naturally, so any high impact exercise is painful and damages my joints and I just don't have the muscle strength to do it. But I do Pilates which I love, it builds up core strength which protects me against further joint damage, and makes me feel more stable and strong. I also use an exercise bike, as it doesn't require full weight on my joints. This is what my physio recommends I do.

I found giving up gluten helped a lot. I feel less tired and a bit stronger. Lots of people with Ehlers Danlos are gluten intolerant and find it helps their condition if they eliminate it.


Congrats lilly. Glad this program works for you.

This may be a bit graphic so just a warning.....

Last time I tried a McDougall type diet with loads of veggies/fruit included, I noticed the food went right through me. I usually have 1 bowel movement every 2 days, and all of a sudden I was going 3 times a day. My stool was also very loose and was a very pale tan color. Any idea why this may be happening?
Giantsbran
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:28 pm

Re: Paleo vs McDougall Crowd

Postby Jack Monzon » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:55 am

eXtremE wrote:The main reason IMO is healthy young ppl don't get sick from eating too much of the wrongs foods until they are much older. Then, they get on the information (google) highway and discover this WOE in an effort to better their health condition.


That is the correct answer. The notion that droves of young people are on McDougall's plan but are "in school and have an intense social life" is not one I agree with. You'd still see those people represented on web forums, etc., but they're not, for the reason eXtremE indicates. Eating is a social activity, and it takes an incredible amount of will power to completely cut out meat, cheese, etc., especially when you are younger and not cooking for yourself. So young people eat those things, and when there's no instant repercussions, there's no motivation to stop. Paleo takes discipline too, but it's easier to follow. I'm thankful that I have time and resources to cook for myself.
Jack Monzon
 
Posts: 644
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:19 pm

Next

Return to The Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests



Welcome!

Sign up to receive our regular articles, recipes, and news about upcoming events.