If you can't do 10 push ups, are you really aging healthily?

[f1jim]

We have 2 forums aimed at physical exercise. Both of those forums are very active. To paint the majority of the forum membership with a broad brush of physically poor fitness is just plain wrong. The fitness forums are some of the most active forums in the list and they are a good representation of the members in general.
I think the focus on fitness and movement is important. It's vital to a healthier old age. My argument is the framing of the original post that paints a picture of the majority of members as frail immobile people lacking an interest in their physical well being. I still maintain that's not the case. In fact, even given that many are here to combat health issues we might be BETTER than the typical American.
f1jim

[VegOn]

Isn't 10 push-ups rather an arbitrary standard? On what research is this recommendation based?

According to Navy PRT standards, 5 push-ups is satisfactory in females aged 40-49, 2 for females age 50-65, and 1 for females over 65.

Men 40-44 should do 24 to rank satisfactory, 44-49 should do 21, 50-54 should do 19, 55-59 should do 10, 8 for 60-64, and 4 for 65+.

Of course, the Navy also looks at curl-ups, 1.5 mile run, and 500 yard swim times, which seems more reasonable than basing an evaluation on a single measure.

And they are expecting military push-ups. Seeing as how they adjust their expectation based on gender and age does make it seem inadvisable to accept a blanket mandate of 10 push-ups to demonstrate graceful aging.

[waingapu]

Isn't 10 push-ups rather an arbitrary standard? On what research is this recommendation based?

According to Navy PRT standards, 5 push-ups is satisfactory in females aged 40-49, 2 for females age 50-65, and 1 for females over 65.
Seeing as how they adjust their expectation based on gender and age does make it seem inadvisable to accept a blanket mandate of 10 push-ups to demonstrate graceful aging.

If you had read my original post you would have seen the following:

"For some, that may be knee push ups and for others full push ups, but each requires a minimum amount of arm and core strength"

If you look at the Navy PRT standards you mention, you would see the following;

"Note that push-ups by males and females are done in the same fashion and cannot be done with the knees resting on the ground."

As everyone who has done both types knows, there is a huge difference in effort needed to do each type.
Many women who can't do a single regular push up can easily do 10 knee push ups.

This is called the Lounge. I did not know discussions about health that involved physical fitness were relegated only to certain forums. I guess no one mentioned that when we had 194 posts and over 6,500 views in the other thread about push ups.
Never saw one person complain about that thread which went on for about a year.

Clearly any discussion about what constitutes nice goals for those of us who are aging seems dangerous as it might offend someone who doesn't see that as part of their health.
How different that is when discussion of eating takes place.
IN those threads its all about hitting the 10% mark, or the 15% mark and how eating 20% or 30% is steering well clear of the proper goal.
No one seems to have any hesitancy about saying what constitutes healthy eating in their opinion, or what level one should strive for regarding cholesterol.

But mention something as moderate as doing 10 knee push-ups and it sends some into a uproar.
Really a double standard. I don't see my fitness health as being separate from my dietary health.
BTW, no one was saying that everyone had to be at that standard now, but rather that we might think about it as being something we'd want to obtain as a part of healthy living as we enter our 60's and 70's. Many of us are already in that age range and know first hand about the loss of muscle that happens to all adults as they age.

The touchy objection to any such discussion really makes me wonder what some think is health for middle aged and older adults.
AS you see, I always made allowances for those who had disabilities and/or excess weight. Clearly people in that category would have a difficult time doing even 10 knee push ups.
However that doesn't mean that others can't discuss it as optimist goal for healthy aging.

If you don't think 10 knee push ups is OK for healthy women, then how about 5..?
Or is even suggesting 1 single knee push up being too disruptive?

How can people be such strong proponents of precise dietary goals, and then object to even the mildest discussion of other health goals.
I'm perplexed. As Golden Ghost posted,
"I’m with you but I got tired of beating my head against the wall so I stopped posting about muscle fitness"

Fortunately in his own life, Dr. McDougall sees a significant need to have enough muscles so that he can continue his outdoor activities well past age 70. While we all can't expect to windsurf as he does, there is much value in having some minimum goals so as to make our senior years much more enjoyable and independent.

[f1jim]

You didn't get my point. I wasn't saying the topic should be relegated to the exercise forums. I was saying that those two forums were heavily used. Did you factor that into your summation of the poor physical health you tarnished the membership with?
If you don't visit those two widely active forums you are ignoring a large percentage of the membership roles.
That was my point. Make sure you are looking at the membership in total, not just the participants that post in the lounge.
I hope that's clear now.
f1jim

[VegOn]

If you had read my original post you would have seen the following:

"For some, that may be knee push ups and for others full push ups, but each requires a minimum amount of arm and core strength"

If you look at the Navy PRT standards you mention, you would see the following;

"Note that push-ups by males and females are done in the same fashion and cannot be done with the knees resting on the ground."

And if you had read my post, you would have seen the following:

"And they are expecting military push-ups." (bolded for emphasis)

I am not complaining about the discussion or the need for people to consider their level of physical fitness. I simply wished to point out that "doing 10 push ups" might not be the best measure for all people to use to assess their level of fitness. For some people, "doing 10 push-ups" might equate to an above average performance while for others it is substandard. Age and gender should be considered.

Personally, I look at the Navy PRT standards as a guide. I like that they are specific to age and gender. I like that they look at both muscular fitness and cardiovascular fitness, both of which I consider essential. I like that there are levels from Satisfactory to Outstanding, so that you can set goals for yourself and see at which level you can perform each exercise.

Knee push-ups are a modification that might be necessary for some, but personally I don't think they should be a goal for individuals without a health limitation. They are a starting point. sure, but the goal for healthy individuals should be to increase repetitions until upper body strength is developed enough to progress to standard push-ups.

YMMV

[Gershon]

Waingapu,

Thanks for calling attention to the need for more strength training as we age.

Ken Cooper has studied this question, and there is information in this article: http://www.cooperaerobics.com/Downloads/About/CooperHealth_F08_FINAL.aspx

I think a person who isn't in shape to do calisthenics may find light weight training more appropriate. I just bought his latest book to see what else he has to say on the subject.

[JOJO1947]

It has been my experience that many women simply can not do a pushup. I have never been able to do one. In grade school the boys did regular pushups and the girls did a modified one. I don't recall any of the girls being able to do regular ones. Even the strong girls who did farm work. Years ago when I did serious weight lifting I was only a few pounds short of being able to bench press my body weight which was considered excellent for an average woman but, try as I might, I was never able to do a pushup. And I tried. Repeatedly, I tried.

In the course of my normal daily activities I do a fair amount of lifting, some of it fairly heavy, without difficulty. I have no problem at all getting up and down from the floor, and can do either without using my hands. I exercise regularly. I am active. I am not going to worry about not being able to do a pushup. Couldn't do them as an active, fit kid. Couldn't do them as a weightlifting younger adult. Can't do them as a fit, active middle aged woman.

10 years ago, at age 57, I started going to the gym, lifting weights, and doing core exercises. (That was after a diagnosis of osteoporosis, which is now reversed to mild osteopenia. My doc told me to get off meat and dairy and lift weights and I did and it worked!) But back then I could get out only 1 1/2 'real' pushups! I never concentrated on pushups, but over the years got up to 25. Then last month I started the hundredpushups.com plan, and after 4 weeks I got out 41 pushups after 4 other sets of 29/33/29/29. We get good at what we practice. Sarcopenia doesn't set in at 67 if you do something about it, because that 20# weight I could barely pick up 10 years ago? I curl 20# weights now! At 5'2" 109lb. I'm stronger than many who are 25 years younger - not because of genes but because I love the gym and am serious about total fitness. A healthy diet is primary, but if you don't exercise, sarcopenia, weakness, decreased aerobic capacity, bad balance, and decreased bone density are a given. I think pushups are a great exercise because almost all your muscles are recruited and no equipment is required - same for lunges or squats. But it doesn't really matter WHAT exercise we do as long as we hit all the muscle groups. Jack LaLanne was a force to be reckoned with until he died at 96 - strong, good muscles, loving life and he went to the gym the week before he died. We have free will and can make choices. I choose to eat McDougall and exercise every day whether I want to or not. There are days I really want to eat crap and sit on my butt, but then I remember I can't rest on my laurels - that every day I am either moving closer to good health or further away. At 67 I truly feel more vibrant, flexible, strong and mentally healthy than I have in 25 years. So I keep on doing what works!

[Katydid]

I suppose what bothers me about this thread is the arbitrariness of the test. I can't do 10 push-ups so I'm not fit? The other day when I was on Sam's Club getting a free blood test (non-fasting glucose 86, TC 152, BP 106/74, BMI 22) I bought a 42 pound bag of dried dog food for Buddy the hell hound. I heaved the bag into the cart, out of the cart, into the trunk, out of the trunk, up the stairs to my condo, held it while unlocking the door, and lifted it up to dump in the dry food bin. Good lord! How strong does a person have to be to be considered fit? I do everything I need or want to do - and at 58 I'm too damn old for the Marines anyway

Kate

[Lacey]

I suppose what bothers me about this thread is the arbitrariness of the test. I can't do 10 push-ups so I'm not fit?

I agree. When I would regularly bench press 100 pounds I couldn't do pushups. I do heavy lifting most days in the course of my daily work but I can't do pushups. I think I am going to stop reading this thread.

[JOJO1947]

I suppose what bothers me about this thread is the arbitrariness of the test. I can't do 10 push-ups so I'm not fit? The other day when I was on Sam's Club getting a free blood test (non-fasting glucose 86, TC 152, BP 106/74, BMI 22) I bought a 42 pound bag of dried dog food for Buddy the hell hound. I heaved the bag into the cart, out of the cart, into the trunk, out of the trunk, up the stairs to my condo, held it while unlocking the door, and lifted it up to dump in the dry food bin. Good lord! How strong does a person have to be to be considered fit? I do everything I need or want to do - and at 58 I'm too damn old for the Marines anyway

Kate

Some people love to do pushups so they'll love talking about it. Others like to do other exercises. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU DO AS LONG AS YOU DO SOMETHING TO STAY OR GET STRONG AND FLEXIBLE. There are a million ways to stay physically fit. I change up what I do all the time. I'm on a pushups gig right now. A few months ago I was into planks. I set goals and work towards them because I find that effective for me. But set the bar for yourself. And remember age is just a number. At 57 I was weak, inflexible and out of shape. Today at 67 I'm actually increasing my muscle strength. I loved your post because the red flag for me was I could hardly get the large dog food bag into the cart 10 years ago. Today I can!

[momof4]

It's sad that some women were told they couldn't do push ups. When I was a gymnast in jr high and high school, it was simply expected that we would do them (no knees) as well as pull ups. In ROTC in college, it was an environment where again, it was simply expected that we would do them--in fact, they were often a game (walk by a certain officer and he'd simply say "you know what to do!" and we'd drop and give him 10 push ups--it was fun, actually!). I left the army being able to do 40 good push ups. Then I had babies and couldn't even do one. I think for me, anyways, it was a lack of core strength. Now, I want those push ups back. For years I've been doing them on our staircase since it's easy for me to remember to knock em out when I'm walking upstairs, but my goal is to do 5 good ones on the floor. Maybe I never will get them all back (I've injured both shoulders, and the elevation of the staircase takes some of the weight off them), but it certainly doesn't hurt to have a goal. Push ups are just one exercise of many, but I'm one of those people who do think they're important for my own fitness and health.

If anyone's interested in bodyweight exercises, an excellent book I recently came across is You Are Your Own Gym. Forget his diet advice, of course, but the exercises are great and can be done anywhere, and there are ways to make it work for any level of fitness. I've only completed the first week, but I love how it feels to get a total body workout and to feel muscles I thought had left long ago!

I look at my mom (79) and other older people, and it becomes fairly obvious why they look "old." They don't have the flexibility in their feet to walk comfortable (so they practically shuffle), their necks and shoulders are stiff so they have to turn their whole bodies to look around instead of just their heads, they can't bend down easily or get up, etc. I've had injuries that have limited my range of motion, so I know how that feels. I also see horrible posture in many people, even people who are slim and eat well--the ladies stick their tummies out while rounding their shoulders forward and jutting their necks even further. My mom was 5'4", and now she's barely over 5'--and I think a lot of that loss in height is from her poor posture. Contrast that with my son's swim coach, in his 50s, who looks like a teenager from behind--he's extremely fit and does Ironman competitions. All exercise is important, but I think cardio is often overemphasized while strength training (esp. bodyweight exercises) are minimized.

As I age, it's not just about diet and lab numbers. I also want to be fit, have good relationships, a good spiritual life, outdoor activities, sleep well, etc.

[eXtremE]

I just got on the floor again and did 15 this time, but that #15 was

I think people who eat healthy who don't exercise often do not look healthy...at least not to me. You do start to lose muscle mass as you age. I look at some of my young glory days pics and then the look at me now photos

That is why I don't take pictures anymore. I have gotta start back hitting the gym regularly tho. Right where the arms attach to the shoulder...that area seems to start sagging really bad once you hit that magic 50 and beyond....

Seems much worse in women than in men when I see ppl in public with clothes on that expose the arms and armpits.

[SweetPea]

I've been increasing my reps of wall-pushups and counter-pushups (and tricep dips) several times a week for over a year (up to 30-50 at a time) and can now do 10 full floor pushups with good form. If I'd started by focusing on floor pushups, I probably would have given up on them altogether! My core is stronger and I'm happy that a couple of minutes of effort a few times a week has shaped up my arms/shoulders/back. I've even been enjoying myself.

[waingapu]

I've been increasing my reps of wall-pushups and counter-pushups (and tricep dips) several times a week for over a year (up to 30-50 at a time) and can now do 10 full floor pushups with good form. If I'd started by focusing on floor pushups, I probably would have given up on them altogether! My core is stronger and I'm happy that a couple of minutes of effort a few times a week has shaped up my arms/shoulders/back. I've even been enjoying myself.

A very good example of how some women and men can go from near zero ---> to fitness over a extended period of time.

2 minutes, 3 times a week, over a year or two...can result in a dramatic increase in strength.
Wall push ups --> counter push ups --> knee push ups --> to a few full push ups.
Yes, many middle-aged and older, men and women, can do such over 1 to 2 years.
A nice compliment to dietary weight loss over the same time period. They can go hand in hand.

You can Google "wall push ups" and "counter push ups" to see hundreds of examples.

[momof4]

A very good example of how some women and men can go from near zero ---> to fitness over a extended period of time.

2 minutes, 3 times a week, over a year or two...can result in a dramatic increase in strength.
Wall push ups --> counter push ups --> knee push ups --> to a few full push ups.
Yes, many middle-aged and older, men and women, can do such over 1 to 2 years.
A nice compliment to dietary weight loss over the same time period. They can go hand in hand.

You can Google "wall push ups" and "counter push ups" to see hundreds of examples.

Agree! There are almost always ways to make an exercise easier, and this example also shows how important consistency is. Even for something like pullups, there are ways to make it easier to do at home even if you don't have the fancy gym machine that springs you up.