eCornell certificate holder ordered to "cease and desist"

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eCornell certificate holder ordered to "cease and desist"

Postby momof4 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:33 am

Here, in Des Moines, we actually had someone certified through Dr Campbell's program. She worked at facility that had RDs that promoted the regular RD diets, as well as information for the hospitals growing bariatric practices. I talked w/her last year (her husband is a cardiologist here and promotes PBD) since I help w/our CHIP program and wanted to know if she had any recommendations for family doctors (we actually saw him yesterday and were very pleased). Then she just seemed to disappear--no more pamphlets at the clinic, nothing on the hospital's web site about her (I'd mentioned to her that it seemed like a conflict to have her there w/RDs and the bariatric program, but she said they're trying to offer something to meet a wide variety of needs). So a few months ago I found this:
http://www.idph.state.ia.us/IDPHChannel ... 507DB48FCE (see below--the bold print is mine)

Apparently the dietitians weren't happy with what she was doing. The doctor I saw yesterday said she called him after this happened, and now he's stuck because he sent many of his patients to see her and doesn't really like sending them to the regular RDs. Hopefully she's doing something to allow her to practice in the future. I hope things like this don't happen to other people trying to help others w/PBD. Our CHIP program discusses the connection between diet and cancer--it's a DVD-based program, so we're really just the facilitators (but we do two blood draws)--are they going to go after us, next??

Case #12-002 was discussed in open session since this individual is not a licensed dietitian. The
board reviewed the investigative information regarding Bridgette Marcus, a lifestyle coach at
Mercy Weight Loss and Nutrition Center in Des Moines. Discussion points regarding this case:
Marcus has a plant-based nutrition certificate from an online program through Cornell
University. Drapeaux noted that Marcus’ job description states that she is responsible for
assessing nutritional status and providing individualized nutrition care plans and education. The
job description also states that she documents findings and actions and summary of assessments,
follow up and diet instruction comprehension in the medical record. Drapeaux said there is
much similarity in this job description and that of the dietitian. However, the word assessment is
not used in the job description for the dietitian. Loftus noted that Marcus receives verbal
referrals from physicians.
There was discussion about a health coach, which does not require
specialized training, and that assessment and documentation are clinical activities. In a
publication of the center’s services and classes, it states that Marcus is a physician with
certification in plant-based nutrition. There was discussion about certification vs a certificate.
The publication lists classes taught by Marcus, including Gluten-free Eating and The
Diet/Cancer Connection; these classes are therapeutic diets that qualify as medical nutrition
therapy services.
Based on the concerns discussed about the services provided by Marcus,
Johnson asked AAG Lau what options the board has. Lau responded that the only option for
formal board action regarding a non-licensed person is to send a Cease and Desist letter. Lau
clarified that dietetic practice by an unlicensed person is a misdemeanor, and the letter would
notify the person of the elements that constitute unlicensed practice. There was also discussion
of an education letter to the employer and the individual. It was decided that a Cease and Desist
letter will be sent, with a copy to the employer
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Re: eCornell certificate holder ordered to "cease and desist

Postby Ampin Up » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:36 am

It sounds like the board felt that she overstepped her bounds.

We need to be careful not to overstep the bounds of the law. We can teach but not give medical advice. There should be no problem if that is made clear. Even on this forum people try to make that clear.
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Re: eCornell certificate holder ordered to "cease and desist

Postby colonyofcells » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:54 am

In primitive societies and chimps, children learn what food and medicinal plants to eat from their parents and several years of college just to learn what to eat is probablly overkill. Nathan Pritikin used his brains and helped a lot of people even though he had no medical license. The professionals are always trying to protect their livelihood and can't admit that people using common sense can sometimes do a better job. Nathan Pritikin had to work with doctors even though Nathan knew more about nutrition. Vegans teaching unrefined vegan diets + vitamin b12 probably will also need to work under less knowledgeable licensed nutritionists just to stay legal.
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Re: eCornell certificate holder ordered to "cease and desist

Postby sharonbikes » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:04 am

Professional licensing boards such as the one OP references don't make the laws, but they are charged with enforcing the laws. The Cornell certification or any other certification doesn't authorize it's holder to engage in a profession that requires state licensure. Anyone holding such a certification would be well advised to review the laws where you are to ensure you are in compliance.

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Re: eCornell certificate holder ordered to "cease and desist

Postby momof4 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:14 am

It seems to be that if anyone, the hospital is the one who should have been reprimanded, since they're the ones who hired her and made the job description. I can't help but feel the dietitians that worked there didn't like the competition. She trained in England, I believe, and has a medical degree, and then came here and was hired as a nutritionist (not a dietitian) and advocated for plant-based diets, which most RDs aren't in agreement with.

I guess I don't understand why certain people are targeted. Here we have a raw foods lady who does nutritional counseling, has classes about health and nutrition and even has a TV show now. She holds a Raw Foods Week here every summer and is very popular with her meetup group and classes through community ed. I've enjoyed going to her classes, though I question many of the nutritional claims she makes. Maybe that's within the law for her to say things as long as it's not targeted specifically to someone? I have no idea what goes on with her individual counseling sessions, but I would imagine there's some kind of assessment and documentation going on, which was listed in the complaint against Bridget.

I understand people need to know the laws of the state they're in. I really brought this up to see if anyone else who has some certificate (Dr McDougall's, Dr Campbell's) has encountered problems like this.
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Re: eCornell certificate holder ordered to "cease and desist

Postby RebusCannebus » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:47 am

Ampin Up wrote:We can teach but not give medical advice.

Sounds reasonable, but I'm not at all clear on the distinction. Consider these two statements:

1. If you follow this way of eating, your hypertension will improve.
2. Studies have shown that this way of eating lowers blood pressure.

I would consider #1 to be medical advice; #2 to be "teaching." Would you? Do you have some specific examples from your practice in which you've had to restate information in order to avoid accusations of giving medical advice? What guidelines did your SS training provide to help you make this distinction? The kind of legalistic hairsplitting inflicted on Bridgette Marcus sounds like it could be a real minefield for people like yourself trying to spread the word.
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Re: eCornell certificate holder ordered to "cease and desist

Postby StarchHEFP » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:03 pm

a few major problems I noticed with her professional profile:
(1) it lists "specialist in plant based nutrition" - this would imply a primary profession such as medical doctor or dietician

(2) it lists certification in plant based nutrition from Cornell University whereas it should actually say, graduate of the Plant Based Certificate program from T. Colin Campbell Center for Nutrition Studies on the e-Cornell platform. It should not display the Cornell University Logo

(3) certification implies more than having completed a certificate program, such as verification of skills by a certifying body, such as would be implied by having a board certification of some sort

With the right guidance from her institution and the RD's there, as well as the T Colin Campbell Foundation, and without claiming to have a therapeutic diet such as would be recommended by a registered dietician, she can still thrive in her job. I hope she can correct these few things and continue being a health coach. If she has an MBBS, I hope that ultimately she will decide to join a residency program here in the US and become an MD who can focus on plant based nutrition.
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Re: eCornell certificate holder ordered to "cease and desist

Postby Ampin Up » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:12 pm

I agree that the second way is better. Sometimes our enthusiasm overtakes us when trying to help others.

One way to avoid this issue is to make it clear you are not giving medical advice or trained to do so. This is stated in disclaimers on my website and in all communication. I also have students in my face-to-face classes sign a document with my disclaimer that indicates they have read and understand it and will work with a medical professional on this program.

On the extreme end you can always say, "I am not a doctor and this is not medical advice", before you say anything.

Even a doctor cannot be sure about statement number one. The word "will" should be replaced with "should".
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Re: eCornell certificate holder ordered to "cease and desist

Postby JeffN » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:30 am

You might be interested in this discussion on the topic

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5825&p=433201#p433201

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Re: eCornell certificate holder ordered to "cease and desist

Postby momof4 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:36 pm

Very interesting, Jeff. Thanks for posting. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the future with so many of these programs popping up for certification and so many people deciding that they're going to become health coaches. I just have a BS in Nutrition and only partially understand the amount of work that it takes to become an RD, and I very much respect what you do. I don't personally know Bridget (I only spoke with her once on the phone), but with her already having a medical degree (from England, I believe--perhaps it's the MBBS someone else mentioned--that sounds familiar although I no longer have her pamphlet) hopefully it won't be too hard for her to become an RD if that's the road she's taking.
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Re: eCornell certificate holder ordered to "cease and desist

Postby JeffN » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:49 pm

Thanks.

momof4 wrote: perhaps it's the MBBS someone else mentioned-


If she had this, then in most cases, all she has to do is pass the US boards, which if I was here, I would have done. I think the state of WI recognizes it "as-is."

momof4 wrote: hopefully it won't be too hard for her to become an RD if that's the road she's taking.


if someone has an MD or an MBBS, it is not hard at all and can be done in many cases, in about a year or so.

The system may not be perfect and have some flaws but those are the rules.

As with MD's, there are certain states I can practice in and certain states I can't practice in unless I am licensed in those states also. I make this clear to anyone wanting to sign up for counseling with me.

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Re: eCornell certificate holder ordered to "cease and desist

Postby healthyvegan » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:56 pm

I think a good solution would be Cornell elevating their course to something nationally recognized. I'm sure it would cost $30k+ by that point. There should be "Plant Based Nutritionists" who are licensed in all applicable states. I watched over my wife's shoulder when she took the ECornell course, and it seemed like one could just read The China Study for $10 and get the same information.

Additionally, the ECornell course could be something one "adds onto" an existing accredited healthcare license, so one could be a Plant Based MD / RD, etc. Right now ECornell qualifies you as a plant based person :)
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Re: eCornell certificate holder ordered to "cease and desist

Postby hvacigar » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:35 pm

I actually accept this finding only because it also keeps Atkins and Paleo folks from starting a certification program somewhere and being allowed to assess and monitor patients for their programs (which would be a disaster). Can you imagine a room full of bypass patients being told that all they have to do is stop eating carbs and eat more meat and dairy....the room would not be full very long.
If this means I subscribe to a slow change of our current medical system, so be it. Only by more of us living the lifestyle will we make an impact. The science is on our side. Do what you can, but don't overstep. In time people will come to the light.
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Re: eCornell certificate holder ordered to "cease and desist

Postby momof4 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:00 pm

hvacigar wrote:I actually accept this finding only because it also keeps Atkins and Paleo folks from starting a certification program somewhere and being allowed to assess and monitor patients for their programs (which would be a disaster).


Out of curiosity, I just googled it and they are working on it. There are also RDs out there that are calling themselves "Paleo" RDs (why not? We have Julieanna Hever, The Plant-Based Dietitian, whom I'm thankful for).
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Re: eCornell certificate holder ordered to "cease and desist

Postby colonyofcells » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:40 pm

Many of those promoting unhealthy diets have gone back to medical school or nutrition school or useless diploma mills to get a license to kill customers.
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