Glucose readings experiment

[Spiral]

Once you had killed off beta cells in your pancreas there aint no diet that is gonna bring that back.

If the beta cells in ones pancreas are killed off, one would be diagnosed as a Type 1 diabetic, not a Type 2 diabetic.

A Type 1 diabetic is someone who's pancreas no longer makes insulin. Thus, blood sugar control is impaired unless the person obtains insulin from outside the body, by injection.

A Type 2 diabetic still has a functioning pancreas that generates insulin. In fact, blood tests of insulin can be an excellent way of detecting Type 2 diabetes before high blood sugar levels become noticeable.

This is what Jeff Novick did at the Pritikin Center. They didn't just test blood glucose. They tested insulin levels. Insulin levels went down, not up, on a diet very high in starches (with no restrictions based on glycemic index or glycemic load).

If insulin levels drop on a high carbohydrate, high starch, high fiber diet, this means that insulin sensitivity is being increased on a McDougall-Novick type of diet. If insulin sensitivity is being increased on a McDougall-Novick type of diet, type 2 diabetes is, in fact, being reversed. We can get into a semantic argument about whether reversed means cured or controlled. But, nonetheless

Also, a low-glycemic diet does not "control" type 2 diabetes. In the short term it treats one of the symptoms of type 2 diabetes: high postprandial blood glucose measurements. But it doesn't treat the issue of insulin sensitivity. To truly treat type 2 diabetes, one must increase insulin sensitivity.

Do we know that a diet that is higher in fat (nuts) and higher in protein (beans) and lower in carbohydrate (potatoes, rice, oats) will result in better improvements in insulin sensitivity? That's a question distinct from the issue of postprandial glucose measurements.

[eXtremE]

Yeah, I can eat less steel cut oats and I don't get as high a spike.

Is it possible to reduce these spikes in blood sugar by eating less starch rather than switching to all legumes ?

[eXtremE]

You are not diabetic Spiral or pre-diabetic I assume. I wish you could eat a bunch of nothing but potatoes and then post 1HR, 2HR, and 3HR PP BG levels. I would be interested in the results.

[Spiral]

You are not diabetic Spiral or pre-diabetic I assume. I wish you could eat a bunch of nothing but potatoes and then post 1HR, 2HR, and 3HR PP BG levels. I would be interested in the results.

I have not been diagnosed a diabetic. I would be interested in the results too. But the results would still have to be interpreted. In other words, let's say I eat 4 potatoes and then I test my blood sugar 2 hours later and the result is 150. Jeff Novick might say (I don't want to put words in his mouth here) that this is no concern. Someone else might say that the 150 number is high and that I should eat beans instead of potatoes.

But the real question is who is correct? I am guessing that Jeff Novick, at this point, would ask for some context. He would want to know what my overall diet is like, what my BMI is, what my fasting blood glucose and fasting insulin numbers are and what my Hba1c is.

We can get panicked by the postprandial blood glucose levels. But before we do, shouldn't we first learn whether these numbers really have the importance we have attached to them? Why not place more of our attention on blood insulin numbers? After all, is blood insulin numbers decline, this would indicate a reversal of type 2 diabetes.

Why are we not curious about blood insulin levels and only focused on postprandial blood sugars? This makes no sense to me.

[eXtremE]

All I know is that my HBA1C says I am in the pre-diabetic range. I am going to play it safe for awhile (back off the white potatoes and limit steel cut oats somewhat) and increase my vegetable salads, non starchy greens, and beans until I can sort things out and get my HBA1C to come down while maintaining my great lipid numbers. Like Astro, I am not going to keep eating foods that spike my BG in the 170-200 ranges. My guess is that you are younger and don't have problem so your BG would not spike this high from eating the potatoes but I am just guessing bc testing would be the only way to verify.

[colonyofcells]

When post prandial was 170-200, was the fasting blood sugar normal ?

[dteresa]

My numbers ran, and still run sometimes, up to two hundred or a little above and I have been t2, no meds, for more than twenty years. And I had an MI which is what they warn about with high post prandials. No microvascular problems though. However, I was not eating one hundred per cent plant based and ate lots of mackerel and salmon, and added other stuff on occasion. The day before I started having chest pain I indulged in the fatty, salty, Easter ham at my daughter's. Did this have anything to do with the thrombosis that caused me to code? Or was it the high post prandials?

I have a stent now which is subject to all sorts of problems so I would not be a good subject to prove anything about high postprandials. However, I do stick faithfully to this woe now. After the horse has run out of the barn. But I do have to admit to wondering about whether high posts are as dangerous as some studies have shown them to be if someone is not eating the insulin resistant causing higher fat diet. For those of us eating plant based, it is pretty darn hard to come to conclusions about some of these studies because, after all, how many of their subjects eat wfpb no fat--diabetic or not?

didi

[baardmk]

I tend to agree more often with Geoffrey, eXtremE, astro and did on this thread.

From my subjective experiences and the little and limited knowledge of the science we have, my personal conclusion is it may be a good preventive measure to avoid high PP blood sugar.

But I agree with the point about this being only one measure. How about monitoring HbA1c, insulin, fasting blood sugar together with 4 hr PP as Novick recommends? How will these values pan out on different diet regiments? And how about exercise, getting more lean mass etc. like Geoffrey talks about? There are multiple ways of dealing with some of these issues. Some are probably more effective than others, and it seems everyone agrees that any one measure shouldn't be the main judge on how to eat.

I share the concern of Spiral that if you place too much emphasis on PP you'll be adding too much protein and fat-rich foods.

I support totally your actions to get excellent numbers and physiological results astro. And you don't seem to go very overboard in your measures. But it does seem that you are heavily advocating this "no higher than 140 PP spike" message. Do you really know that this is a big problem? You've resolved your problems, but can you be sure that the spikes were causing the damages? One could think of alternative hypotheses. If you're going to advertise a lot this message more scrutiny is to be expected of your process.

No one can argue with the subjective experience of success. But it's also not good evidence for others either. astro and in part eXtremE has pretty much jumped on the low glycemic bandwagon. I'm pretty much getting off of the highest glycemic loads and I'm more wary about potatoes than I have been. I don't feel my best after eating lots of them. But I'm also trying to run a little bit more, and I'm building my motivation to start some resistance exercise to get better insulin sensitivity.

It will be exciting eXtremE to see what happens with your HbA1c. I'm quite convinced it will fall. :)

[dteresa]

I don't see that astro's diet is extreme. It sounds like anything you would read in Barnard's diabetes book. Someone who already has diabetes or is pre diabetic would understandably be more cautious than someone who doesn't. (bye the way, on some diabetic sites in the past there has been heated debate about whether there is such a thing as pre diabetes. Some say you are just on the low end of the spectrum and really do have diabetes if your numbers are diagnosed as pre diabetic).

What did Jeff say about four hour numbers? On this woe, even if my numbers were to shoot up to 200 they are never usually anything but normal at four hours. Unless of course, I were to include fat in a meal. In which case I would have lower one and two hour numbers as predicted by the Zone's Barry Sears, however, I would have high four hour numbers. A fact somehow missed by Sears.

didi

[eXtremE]

When post prandial was 170-200, was the fasting blood sugar normal ?

Yes, so far but I had the hot steel cut oats with water yesterday and BG just kept rising a little even after 3 hours. I did eat some rice and beans late last night and fasting this morning was 96, not the typical 80 reading I was getting. I also may not be quite at 8 hours after fasting bc I had the beans and rice late last night before going to bed bc I was a little hungry. Didi is probably right...I seem to be at the low end of the diabetes spectrum. What baffles me is that my A1C should be better now better than it was in 2010 when I was still eating SAD, eating candy, cookies and drinking soft drinks. I cut out all those things completely.

I can only surmise that the oatmeal is one the main culprits and I was eating quite a bit of it on a daily basis for many years. My anxiety is also completely out of control. I thought doing things like this diet, meditating 3-4 times per day, and exercising 2 times a day would help to control w/o meds but it has not worked. I understand the stress hormone cortisol could also be playing a major role in my elevated blood sugar levels but IDK. I am sure that too is elevated bc of the constant stress from the anxiety disorder. I must also consider going back on one psychiatric drug again for the stress and anxiety. There is just nothing more that I can do about the anxiety and at almost age 52, my life is more than half over to I must weigh some risks vs benefits altho I despise drugs like most ppl but after doing everything I know from a dietary standpoint and other positive lifestyle changes, sometimes you are left with no choice. Plus, absolutely nothing you can do about age and growing older.

[Joseph65]

It's my observation that many diseases are the result of too many calories eaten day in and day out for years at a time. Each macronutrient eaten in excess has its own problems. The downside of starch is that you can overeat the stuff up to a certain percentage on a continual basis and not gain weight. But, you are still forcing the cells of the body to deal with this overage and burning it as heat. Imagine the result of over revving you car engine and holding it 20% over redline while using aviation fuel on a continual basis (starch is after all premium fuel for the body). You'll blow the engine or at minimum damage it in another way. In order to deal with the overload of carbs you force the body to keeping dumping massive amounts of insulin continuously into the bloodstream. As the body tries to protect itself from the potential damage it makes each cell more and more insulin resistant and you end up with more health problems. These health problems can be emotional as well as physical, after all the brain is taking in those excess calories and running at warp 10 just as the other organs and muscles. The solution is simple, take in fewer calories. There are many way of doing this. You can do the low carb, high fat thing but I wouldn't make any bets on whether your heart will survive "the cure." The other option is to do some form of intermittent fasting. You might start out with three weeks of the classical method where you eat 500 calories every other day and normally otherwise (if you need to lose weight), otherwise do 1000 calories on fasting days. After the first three weeks up the fasting day calories to about 1000/1200. You'll still maintain the benefits even if you overeat on nonfasting days based on the research I've read. This gives the cells of the body a regular break from being overdriven with starch and should take care of the physical and mental issues. It's worth a try with no downsides and you don't have to give up our way of eating. I personally discovered that I could give up my three ounces of nuts and seeds and still control my Trigs. In addition my HDL went up 8 points while the LDL and total cholesterol dropped a bit. The other bit I've noticed was that my new way of eating enhanced the natural discipline of my mind. I guess you could call it exercising the mind. The more you exercise the mind the better your strength and control. This applies to the mind as well as the muscles. By the way, you'll also discover what it feels like to really be hungry versus cravings. The tougher part is the first three weeks. After that it becomes very easy and natural. The Okinawans achieve all this by eating every day until 80% full. I like my solution better since you'll be able to retain all your muscle mass and strength. Daily dieting has proven to lose 25% of the weight as muscle.

[eXtremE]

Interesting perspective Joseph. What did you eat yesterday for example?

[colonyofcells]

Maybe can try more weight exercises and aerobic exercises to help lower blood sugars. For anxiety, Dr Mcdougall recommends exercise in the sunshine. Cutting down on food every day or every other day, etc. is probably harder to do since many people enjoy eating a lot.

[eXtremE]

I am using exercise Colony after meals to lower BG levels and it does work. I really did abuse my pancreas during my younger years looking back in hindsight but can't go back and undo the past.

[f1jim]

Lot's of theories being expounded here. Low glycemic eating, periodic fasting, Makes for some interesting peripheral reading but our mission isn't to reinvent the wheel here. Dr. McDougall, Jeff, and others are focused on eating well and reviving health. I'm not sure if the long lived cultures surviving on starch for centuries worried much about over revving their "engines" on starch daily. And when does "over reving begin?
Or maybe we can get back to getting everyone consuming healthy starches and build a diet around them. Those wishing to construct their own diet programs are welcome to start a website, expound on their theories, and track the results.
Meanwhile back in McDougall land.....
f1jim