Moderators: JeffN, f1jim, John McDougall, carolve, Heather McDougall
veggylvr wrote:The sad part is that the OP is clearly not someone who can get away with it. He/she is already a heart bypass survivor. It's one thing to gamble your health on these radical views when you haven't (yet) shown any signs of disease, but taking this route knowing that your arteries have already been blocked with plaque is so foolish.
If one looks at the low-carb diet and compares it to SAD, can they really conclude that what probably led them to heart disease was not the meat/dairy but the grains and starches? That's an enormous leap of faith based on scant (if any) hard evidence.
What's certain is that it wasn't the fruits and vegetables in your diet that led to the bypass surgery. So, why not give those a try at preventing further progression of heart disease?
It's absurd to think, "Oh, well, I'll just up my intake of meat and try to raise my cholesterol."
I believe we all benefit from understanding nutrition from all sides, perhaps the original poster should take some of their own advice especially someone with prior heart problems who espouses a low carb diet. /rijman
Listen, there is plenty of research that suggests the health benefits of a plant based diet. /JosephJac
For someone with heart disease the published works of Ornish, Esselstyn, etc. are the ONLY properly documented and scrutinized research documenting reversal of their condition. /f1jim
I would think someone with heart disease would take that research as the gold standard of information on heart disease rather than the speculation of someone clearly in the middle of the battle to regain their health. Could things be more obvious? /f1jim
the science suggesting the link between high Ldl cholesterol and Heart disease is actually well supported by decades of research /JosephJac
Explain the clinical trials of Ornish, Esselstyn and others who have reversed the disease by removing the offending foods. /JosephJac
If an existing treatment such as Ornish's works, we should jump to that until those mechanisms are understood, In my opinion /JosephJac
There is a significant amount of useful information about following the McDougall plan here. /hazelrah
…we've heard or read the theories of people life Gary Taubes, Chris Masterjohn and countless others like Sally Fallon and Robert Atkins MD, that are not included in that book, but put forth the same hypothesis about how dietary cholesterol and high fat do not cause health problems and that the real problem is starch and carbs in general. /plants-and-carbs
Gary Taubes horrible book has been very thoroughly analyzed and debunked from top to bottom. It's a book that was just cherry picked, bad science to try and put forth the Atkin's diet as the key to well-being. /plants-and-carbs
these ridiculous theories of high cholesterol diets being healthy have been ripped to shreds under scrutiny /plants-and-carbs
When one of those low carb people put forth solid evidence on the level of low fat gurus such as : Ornish, Esselstyn, Mcdougall and Pritikin. /plants-and-carbs
Until now, they [Masterjohn, et al] just throw around theories that sound very deep but don't really add up. /plants-and-carbs
One glaringly obvious difference between this site and Jimmy Moore's site is that there are no ads. No supplements being sold. This site is offered free by a DOCTOR who has devoted his life to the prevention of illness and disease, and has the clinical and scientific evidence to back it up, not an overweight blogger with a financial agenda. /veggylvr
The way of eating promoted by Dr. McDougall and Jeff Novick is not a vehicle for selling supplements or protein powders or any of the various food substitutes I see sold on many low-carb/paleo websites. / Quiet Heather
There are no studies showing that low carb diets reverse heart disease. That high cholesterol actually prevents heart attacks. They rely on speculation and anecdotal information, then twist the science to support their theories.
Many of us have already been on the low carb side. We were "followers" of Taubes and Jimmy and Eades. We woke up. You can too. Start evaluating the science. Read some criticisms of people like Taubes. Watch Plantpositive's videos. Begin to question what they're selling you, and why it doesn't mesh with the bulk of scientific evidence. Ask why they don't do clinical trials to prove, once and for all, that this amazing diet cures heart disease. /veggylvr
If I came here looking for justification not to follow that plan, I would have to question the rationality of any judgement I made. /hazelrah
You admitted you know little about Dr. McDougall, and instead of asking for more information, counterattacked with a list of people opposed to this way of eating. Which do you file that under: honest question, doubt, or concern? /vgpedlr
Those beliefs are based on decades of science, thousands of personal stories, and the only successful heart disease reversals in history. /vgpedlr
There is no nutritional advantage to beef over rice and beans. Protein is protein, rice and beans can feed a lot of people, is cheap and requires a lot less resources. /JosephJac
These passages jumped out at me, we have a poster recommending we review all the science yet is not very familiar with Dr. McDougall /rijman
and is apparently unaware there are over 50 doctors, nutritionists and dietitians in the U.S. (just that I know of) who actively advocate a plant based diet.
I am not vegan and don't care for animal rights issues, that's not why most of us are here and eat a starch centered diet. /groanofthewind
How any supposedly reputable scientific source can claim that diet has nothing to do with cholesterol levels or heart disease is utterly ridiculous. /theresaann
The China Study pretty clearly showed the effects of animal protein on human health, with <10% of the diet as animal protein is healthiest. / theresaann
I especially hate Masterjohn. How dare that charilton have a PhD from my alma mater (Uconn), he's an embarrasment to the entire university. /JosephJac
the likes of Taubes, Masterjohn, Davis, and Lustwig /vgpedlr
Uffe Ravnskov, Gary Taubes, Robert H. Lustig,Chris Masterjohn are for me only criminals / ulialen
promoted by a guy who has never had a good handle on his weight/health as an adult and is purporting to offer advice on same to the public / f1jim
like the mammoth logic-chopping essays of Chris Masterjohn /dstewar
Whether you are Paleo, Locarb, Vegan, AntiGluten, Fruitarian, etc. etc. etc, I think we can all meet each other halfway and agree that this world has a finite amount of natural resources. Should we squander them because a few individuals refuse to make simple dietary changes?
Absolutely this is "If you aren't with us, you're against us." Stop wasting all our fresh water and resources on raising ani-mals because you lazy bastards won't get to the gym. That might sound a little harsh, but there are other people on this planet besides you. / bigscaryguylol
I hate going there when i debate with Paleo supporters. But it's true, Soon our species will cross a threshold in our carrying capacity and we will have to pragmatically make a choice... Continue with our current ideas and ways of living and die, or change. Our ancestors in the ice age did what they had to do to survive and we must do the same.. How very human of us.
/ JosephJac
Campbell selectively used data sympathetic towards his anti-animal protein bias and completely ignored that data that quite possibly indicts wheat gluten. I am not going to do a point-by-point analysis that has been done effectively by numerous folks including Denise Minger [http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/]. But I am guessing she is also demonized already in this community. It is amazing how many other people are wrong and only a handful of ‘scientists/doctors” i.e. Campbell, Ornish, Esselstyn, Benard and McDougall have is figured out correctly.
cabg_survivor wrote:I am not vegan and don't care for animal rights issues, that's not why most of us are here and eat a starch centered diet. /groanofthewind
And then you proceed to once again build the Jimmy Moore straw man and tear him down wonderfully. And yet the only scientific reference is to the Ornish study. [See above for the weaknesses therein]. You are sarcastic about LDL-P when current research shows a very keen interest in the LDL subfractions and their role in CVD See above also].
.[/b]
Both Ornish and Esselstyn had revolutionary studies. Personally, I was more impressed by Esselstyn's study than Ornish's, because Esselstyn got such great results with only diet and very simple rules. The results: There were 49 cardiac events in the few years leading up to the study. After the study started, there were zero more events in 12 years. What do you suppose the odds are that that is a coincidence? Intuitively, you can probably figure this out. What Esselstyn lacked in a control group he made up for with the statistical likelihood of achieving that result due to chance.
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