WOW

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

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Re: WOW

Postby veggylvr » Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:02 am

The sad part is that the OP is clearly not someone who can get away with it. He/she is already a heart bypass survivor. It's one thing to gamble your health on these radical views when you haven't (yet) shown any signs of disease, but taking this route knowing that your arteries have already been blocked with plaque is so foolish.

If one looks at the low-carb diet and compares it to SAD, can they really conclude that what probably led them to heart disease was not the meat/dairy but the grains and starches? That's an enormous leap of faith based on scant (if any) hard evidence.

What's certain is that it wasn't the fruits and vegetables in your diet that led to the bypass surgery. So, why not give those a try at preventing further progression of heart disease?

It's absurd to think, "Oh, well, I'll just up my intake of meat and try to raise my cholesterol."
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Re: WOW

Postby Spiral » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:36 pm

veggylvr wrote:The sad part is that the OP is clearly not someone who can get away with it. He/she is already a heart bypass survivor. It's one thing to gamble your health on these radical views when you haven't (yet) shown any signs of disease, but taking this route knowing that your arteries have already been blocked with plaque is so foolish.

If one looks at the low-carb diet and compares it to SAD, can they really conclude that what probably led them to heart disease was not the meat/dairy but the grains and starches? That's an enormous leap of faith based on scant (if any) hard evidence.

What's certain is that it wasn't the fruits and vegetables in your diet that led to the bypass surgery. So, why not give those a try at preventing further progression of heart disease?

It's absurd to think, "Oh, well, I'll just up my intake of meat and try to raise my cholesterol."

I agree completely.

But I should mention that those relatives I have who are following a high fat Weston Price type diet (which includes lots of eggs and grass fed beef and full fat cream soaked vegetables) do have parent's who have suffered from cardiovascular disease. As for one of these relatives, her father died of a massive heart attack at the age of 54. It was his first and last heart attack. The husband of this realtive has a brother who had a non-fatal heart attack and then had bypass surgery and a father who had bypass surgery due to chest pain.

So, in my opinion, this is still a bit of russian roulette that is going on. It's just not as risky as the OP's russian roulette.

What you say is correct. Why should be take the leap of faith, based on zero evidence, that it's the wheat, corn, oats, beans and potatoes that are causing cardiovascular disease and not the beef, chicken, pork, milk, cheese, eggs and vegetables oils that are causing cardiovascular disease?

Also, why should we conclude, based on cherry picked evidence, that LDL (low density lipoprotein) is not a biomarker pointing towards cardiovascular disease.

Sure, I agree that biomarkers (even good ones like LDL) are not "end points" (such as heart attacks).

But let's not conclude that LDL doesn't matter at all.
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Re: WOW

Postby cabg_survivor » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:09 pm

WOW AGAIN!

I wasn't even sure where to start with this response or whether it was even worth the sacrifice of my time to think through and carefully articulate a response in a community such as this one.

Ultimately, all I can do is my part to leave places I visit, whether in real life or virtually, having learned from the experience and always being as gracious as possible.

In the end I decided to respond likely one final time to this thread and this community. At a minimum I would like to thank all for the attacks that forced me to take a closer look at the research. It seems apparent to me that many in this community think they have figured out all the answers and discussion to the contrary is to be ridiculed. As I said I am a cabg survivor and have been investigating the scientific [not anecdotal] literature for over two years now since my operation. I would be even willing to risk a bet that I have spent more time in the last two years with original research writings than most contributors to this thread. My most egregious miscalculation regarding this community appears to be mistaking it as a place to have safe discussion about differing views of the state of the science of nutrition & heart disease.

In an effort to organize my thoughts I will frame my response around two separate but obviously related perspectives: 1] the discussion at the central core of my original post and 2] my subjective experience of interacting with this community.


Core Discussion

I believe we all benefit from understanding nutrition from all sides, perhaps the original poster should take some of their own advice especially someone with prior heart problems who espouses a low carb diet. /rijman


The truth is I never claimed to be one who “espouses a low carb diet”. Actually almost to the contrary my words were: While I am not a low carb 'troglodyte' by any stretch of the imagination it is apparent to me that folks here are more interested in beating up messengers of differing opinions”.

Most in here just assumed I was one of those ignorant low carb “troglodytes” because I inquired about the ferocity with which a book yet to be published was being attacked. From a diet standpoint I am a good carbs, good fats, clean/organic eater as much as availability and finances allow. Not that my personal diet choices [or any one person’s diet choices for that matter] alter any of the science.

And I couldn’t agree with rijman more regarding “I believe we all benefit from understanding nutrition from all sides”However, at least in this thread such ideas as understanding nutrition from all side are given lip service at best.


Listen, there is plenty of research that suggests the health benefits of a plant based diet. /JosephJac


For someone with heart disease the published works of Ornish, Esselstyn, etc. are the ONLY properly documented and scrutinized research documenting reversal of their condition. /f1jim


I would think someone with heart disease would take that research as the gold standard of information on heart disease rather than the speculation of someone clearly in the middle of the battle to regain their health. Could things be more obvious? /f1jim


You are absolutely right. In the my journey to live as healthy a life as possible relative to my CVD issues, I want the “gold standard” but I have seen nothing in here but vague references to “the research”.
Share the links? Gold standard? Peer-reviewed studies? Clinical trials? Where can I read all this great research?



the science suggesting the link between high Ldl cholesterol and Heart disease is actually well supported by decades of research /JosephJac


And of course decades of science have never been mistaken or incomplete before in human history. Alas, we all know better. But elevated serum cholesterol = heart disease is not that simple as the current discussion regarding ongoing research in LDL particle subfractions & size speaks to..[another thing I saw demonized here?].

For an example try the MESA Study. [LDL particle subclasses, LDL particle size, and carotid atherosclerosis in the Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis (MESA) Atherosclerosis- Volume 192, Issue 1, May 2007, Pages 211–217]http://www.nypcvs.org/images/MESA.pdf




Explain the clinical trials of Ornish, Esselstyn and others who have reversed the disease by removing the offending foods. /JosephJac


If an existing treatment such as Ornish's works, we should jump to that until those mechanisms are understood, In my opinion /JosephJac


[And btw, don't take my word for this stuff; go look at the literature for yourself. I've posted the links for most of my observations].


Ok let's start with the Ornish: Lifestyle Heart Trial – For starters there was a total of 48 people analyzed by the study
In addition to the miniscule number of participants the whole study is flawed. Here are the study's metholodolgy:

Patients with angiographically documented coronary artery disease were randomly assigned to an experimental group or to a usual-care control group. Experimental-group patients were prescribed a lifestyle programme that included a low-fat vegetarian diet,
moderate aerobic exercise, stress management training, stopping smoking, and group support. Control-group patients were not
asked to make lifestyle changes, although they were free to do so. [Quote taken directly from Ornish study]

My goodness I am no professional researcher but it is elementary that the better a study the more it isolates for as few variables as possible.

Well is this study, [which by the way is ubiquitously quoted as the ‘gold standard’ in the low-fat/vegan discussions], the experimental group received:
1. Low fat vegetarian diet
2. Moderate aerobic exercise
3. Stress Management Training
4. Smoking cessasation
5. Group support

The control group received: “Control-group patients were not even asked to make lifestyle changes, although they were free to do so”

Even if the small sample wasn't a problem [and it is] it is again elementary that the results cannot be attributed to a low-fat/vergetarian diet any more or any less than they can be attributed to any of the other controlled for variables. Let alone the potential for synergistic affect between multiple variables. Any fair minded scientific mind would recognize the flawed nature of this study. And yet it is quoted all over the internet as the definitive proof for a low-fat/vegan lifestyle. It is entirely possible that any diet with the last four treatment elements could have positive effects. The truth is it cannot be determined by the nature of this study.


http://20www.ornishspectrum.com/wp-content/uploads/can-lifestyle-changes-reverse-coronary-heart-disease.pdf


Dr. Caldwell Esselystn, like Dr. John McDougall, returns very thin results in academic searches through peer-reviewed journals.


Dr. Esselystn’s research was primarily done in his personal practice.

A strategy to arrest and reverse coronary artery disease: a 5-year longitudinal study of a single physician's practice - [url]J Fam Pract. 1995 Dec;41(6):560-8[/url]
Of the 22 participants, 5 dropped out within 2 years, and 17 maintained the diet, 11 of whom completed a mean of 5.5 years of follow-up.
CONCLUSIONS: A physician can influence patients in the decision to adopt a very low-fat diet that, combined with lipid-lowering drugs, can reduce cholesterol levels to below 150 mg/dL and uniformly result in the arrest or reversal of coronary artery disease.

Updating a 12-Year Experience With Arrest and Reversal Therapy for Coronary Heart Disease (An Overdue Requiem for Palliative Cardiology) [http://www.heartattackproof.com/reversal01.htm – Dr. Esselstyn’s website].
The study focused solely on lipid reduction through medication and diet, addressing, as Roberts has stated, "the only true risk factor for coronary artery disease--a cholesterol above 150 mg/dI.

Again, I quoted directly from the source literature. And what part of the reduction can be attributed to a very low fat diet and what % is attributable to the lipid-lowering drugs? It is indeterminable by this study. And “the only true risk factor for coronary heart disease—a cholesterol above 150mg/dl” is just not entirely consistent with the current state of the science. A total cholesterol level is a poorly coorelated variable in and of itself for heart disease. HDL, LDL & triglycerides all have varying affects.

C-Reactive protein, A1c and LDL-P are all also part of the current research dialogue regarding clinical markers for heart disease.

C-Reactive Protein: Eighty Years from Discovery to Emergence as a Major Risk Marker for Cardiovascular Disease [http://www.clinchem.org/content/55/2/209.long]


Hemoglobin A1c Is Associated With Increased Risk of Incident Coronary Heart Disease Among Apparently Healthy, Nondiabetic Men and Women [http://jaha.ahajournals.org/content/2/2/e000077.full]


Atherosclerosis and Lipoproteins
Circulating Oxidized LDL Is a Useful Marker for Identifying Patients With Coronary Artery Disease [http://atvb.ahajournals.org/content/21/5/844.full]



As I alluded to earlier, I am having considerable difficulty finding third-part, peer reviewed literature of Dr. McDougall’s research invoked here repeatedly. Even his “Current Research” page [http://www.drmcdougall.com/medical_research.html] is fairly bereft of references to independent peer-reviewed literature relative to his ‘theories’. Point me to these papers/articles please. And for all you other flamers and haters in here – if you don't have links to original research papers and/or peer-reviewed journal articles. Just save us both the time and go vent elsewhere.



The lack of support [for Moore's book, the original catalyst – addition mine] is based on much sound research and data AND the fact it's promoted by a guy who has never had a good handle on his weight/health as an adult and is purporting to offer advice on same to the public. That is why it is shunned here. /f1jim

Here is a great example to two foundational issues that have been repeated over and over again in the thread:

1. The repeated reference to “sound research and data”. Again, where are links to the abundance of sound research in the professional journals?

And

2. The continual use of the trusty old straw man. “A guy who never had a good handle on his weight/health” has no statistical bearing on the underlying state of the art in nutrition science and cardiovascular disease. Personal opinions about Moore are irrelevant to the data. But the straw man is erected and summarily dismissed.



There is a significant amount of useful information about following the McDougall plan here. /hazelrah


And yet the peer-reviewed “clinical research” is to be found where?

…we've heard or read the theories of people life Gary Taubes, Chris Masterjohn and countless others like Sally Fallon and Robert Atkins MD, that are not included in that book, but put forth the same hypothesis about how dietary cholesterol and high fat do not cause health problems and that the real problem is starch and carbs in general. /plants-and-carbs


And the science is forever settled? Another example of a general unwillingness [or inability] to quote any research to substantiate the allegations.

Gary Taubes horrible book has been very thoroughly analyzed and debunked from top to bottom. It's a book that was just cherry picked, bad science to try and put forth the Atkin's diet as the key to well-being. /plants-and-carbs


So Gary Taubes, the three-time winner of the National Association of Science Writers’ Science in Society Award [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Taubes] is just a mouthpiece for Atkins? Give me links other than this site to this thorough analysis and debunking.

these ridiculous theories of high cholesterol diets being healthy have been ripped to shreds under scrutiny /plants-and-carbs


Again, I ask point me to the third party, peer-reviewed ‘rip to shreds’ research???

When one of those low carb people put forth solid evidence on the level of low fat gurus such as : Ornish, Esselstyn, Mcdougall and Pritikin. /plants-and-carbs


Again, lots of claims & hyperbole but not independent research. [See previous comments about Ornish Heart Study, Esselstyn’s small personal practice study.


Until now, they [Masterjohn, et al] just throw around theories that sound very deep but don't really add up. /plants-and-carbs


Again, relative to Dr. McDougall’s ‘research”; it is conspicuously absent from the professional literature. I would dare to suggest Dr. McDougall may be the greater theorist.

One glaringly obvious difference between this site and Jimmy Moore's site is that there are no ads. No supplements being sold. This site is offered free by a DOCTOR who has devoted his life to the prevention of illness and disease, and has the clinical and scientific evidence to back it up, not an overweight blogger with a financial agenda. /veggylvr


The way of eating promoted by Dr. McDougall and Jeff Novick is not a vehicle for selling supplements or protein powders or any of the various food substitutes I see sold on many low-carb/paleo websites. / Quiet Heather


No Dr. McDougall just sells his books and dvd packages, $600 ‘Advanced Study’ programs and his $5,000 10-day live in programs. So it is really about what is being hawked I guess; supplements vs. high dollar seminars. A bit hypocritical at best.

But all that aside the Jimmy Moore and/or Gary Taubes and/or any other character bashing are yet another example of the prolific use of straw man arguments in this forum. Personal attacks do not negate the fact that the book that started this thread has numerous, peer validated doctors and researches nor do those attacks negate the fact that “Good Calories, Bad Calories” has 100+ pages of endnotes and bibliography replete with references to original research not Taubes opinions. Again, the propensity in this community seems to be attack the messenger of the dissenting view[s] and claim there is no research. Even a cursory view of Taubes’ documentation neuters such attacks.


There are no studies showing that low carb diets reverse heart disease. That high cholesterol actually prevents heart attacks. They rely on speculation and anecdotal information, then twist the science to support their theories.


Many of us have already been on the low carb side. We were "followers" of Taubes and Jimmy and Eades. We woke up. You can too. Start evaluating the science. Read some criticisms of people like Taubes. Watch Plantpositive's videos. Begin to question what they're selling you, and why it doesn't mesh with the bulk of scientific evidence. Ask why they don't do clinical trials to prove, once and for all, that this amazing diet cures heart disease. /veggylvr


Poppycock! There are numerous clinical trials comparing diets. Obviously, the reluctance to objectively review the literature is compelling in this place.


Comparison of the Atkins, Ornish, Weight Watchers, and Zone Diets for Weight Loss and Heart Disease Risk Reduction: A Randomized Trial - JAMA, January 5, 2005—Vol 293, No. 1 [http://www.stat.ufl.edu/~winner/consult/diet.pdf]

In conclusion, poor sustainability and adherence rates resulted in modest weight loss and cardiac risk factor reductions for each diet group as a whole. Cardiac risk factor reductions were associated with weight loss regardless of diet type, underscoring the concept that adherence level rather than diet type was the key determinant of clinical benefits. Cardiovascular outcomes studies would be appropriate to further investigate the potential health effects of these diets. More research is also needed to identify practical techniques to in-crease dietary adherence, including techniques to match individuals with the diets best suited to their food preferences, lifestyle, and medical conditions.


My OP point exactly: [a vegetarian diet] … is but "a way" for "some people" to improve their health.



Meta-Analysis Comparing Mediterranean to Low-Fat Diets for Modification of Cardiovascular Risk Factors - The American Journal of Medicine
Volume 124, Issue 9, September 2011, Pages 841–851.e2 [http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002934311004104]

Methods: We systematically searched MEDLINE, EMBASE, Biosis, Web of Science, and the Cochrane Central Register of Controlled Trials from their inception until January 2011, as well as contacted experts in the field, to identify randomized controlled trials comparing Mediterranean to low-fat diets in overweight/obese individuals, with a minimum follow-up of 6 months, reporting intention-to-treat data on cardiovascular risk factors. Two authors independently assessed trial eligibility and quality.


Conclusion: Mediterranean diets appear to be more effective than low-fat diets in inducing clinically relevant long-term changes in cardiovascular risk factors and inflammatory markers.


Components of a Cardioprotective Diet : New Insights - Circulation. 2011;123:2870-2891 – [http://www.euromilk.org/upload/docs/attachments/EDA/2011%2007_Circulation%20V123%2824%29%202011%20Mozaffarian.pdf]


Traditionally, dietary recommendations have advised lower total fat intake, primarily because of higher caloric density of
fats compared with protein or carbohydrate. However, the type of fats consumed appears to be far more relevant for
cardiometabolic health than the proportion of calories consumed from total fat.61,133–135 Calorie for calorie, industrially produced trans fats from partially hydrogenated vegetable oils have the strongest adverse relations with CHD risk,136 and consumption of such fats should be as close to zero as possible.10 Conversely, seafood-derived omega-3 PUFAs have strong inverse relations with CHD mortality,39,46 and a recent World Health Organization Expert Consultation recommended that all adults consume at least 250 mg/d EPA plus DHA from seafood.11 Some evidence supports cardiovascular benefits of plant-derived omega-3 fats, but compared
with naturally occurring omega-3 from seafood, the potency of plant-based omega-3 appears weaker, and mixed findings preclude strong conclusions.137,138



If I came here looking for justification not to follow that plan, I would have to question the rationality of any judgement I made. /hazelrah


I didn't come here “looking for justification not to follow that plan. I never heard of Dr. McDougall’s plan; rather I stumbled upon this site via the Jimmy Moore/Cholesterol Realty damnation thread. As I readily admitted I hadn't heard of Dr. McDougall's plan so I certainly didn't come here looking for justification to not follow it.

You admitted you know little about Dr. McDougall, and instead of asking for more information, counterattacked with a list of people opposed to this way of eating. Which do you file that under: honest question, doubt, or concern? /vgpedlr


Two points:
1. I did not “counterattack” with anything. At that point I didn't even know they were the enemy. I merely asked how could they all be so wrong?
2. “counterattack” by definition comes after the attack. Interesting choice of words on your part. To answer your question...it was a doubt...a doubt they could all be so completely wrong.


Those beliefs are based on decades of science, thousands of personal stories, and the only successful heart disease reversals in history. /vgpedlr


Yet once more...point me to the professional literature that discusses these decades of science. Where are the clinical trials? Where are the professional journal articles?


There is no nutritional advantage to beef over rice and beans. Protein is protein, rice and beans can feed a lot of people, is cheap and requires a lot less resources. /JosephJac


A nutrition 101 student with their first lesson in macronutrients under their belt could scientifically slice and dice that statement. You don't really believe that “protein is protein” is a valid nutritional statement do you? Afraid once again more religion than science.


These passages jumped out at me, we have a poster recommending we review all the science yet is not very familiar with Dr. McDougall /rijman


Perhaps this poster was unaware of Dr. McDougall's work because it is apparently so scarce in the professional peer-reviewed journals universe. And yet many of the contributors to “Cholesterol Clarity” appear prolific in the scientific literature. But I believe the they are all wrong and the low-fat gurus have it all right has already been established as the party line in this community.

and is apparently unaware there are over 50 doctors, nutritionists and dietitians in the U.S. (just that I know of) who actively advocate a plant based diet.


If there are only 50+/- in the US, I'm not sure that is a bragging rights bullet point. ;) And in and of itself on its’ best day is anecdotal not science.


I am not vegan and don't care for animal rights issues, that's not why most of us are here and eat a starch centered diet. /groanofthewind


And then you proceed to once again build the Jimmy Moore straw man and tear him down wonderfully. And yet the only scientific reference is to the Ornish study. [See above for the weaknesses therein]. You are sarcastic about LDL-P when current research shows a very keen interest in the LDL subfractions and their role in CVD See above also].


How any supposedly reputable scientific source can claim that diet has nothing to do with cholesterol levels or heart disease is utterly ridiculous. /theresaann


And yet one more straw man. Was never claimed by me in this thread and likely you could find very few people in any related profession [low carb advocates included] that would make and defend such a generalized statement. What is typically espoused in that total serum cholesterol is not a good indicator of heart disease risk. But rather the particular levels of HDL-C, LDL-C, triglycerides, c-reactive protein, Lp(a) are better clinical markers than total serum cholesterol.
The China Study pretty clearly showed the effects of animal protein on human health, with <10% of the diet as animal protein is healthiest. / theresaann


As a starting point it is important to recognize that T. Colin Campbell’s book, The China Study, is in actuality not the actual study but rather his interpretation of selectively chosen data from the actual study called “Diet, Life-style and Mortality in China: A Study of the Characterisitcs of 65 Chinese Countries”. The original study is a 894-page tome of which less than the first 100 pages are text and the rest is tables of numeric data. Correlating 367 variables produced 8,000 statistically significant data points. Campbell selectively used data sympathetic towards his anti-animal protein bias and completely ignored that data that quite possibly indicts wheat gluten. I am not going to do a point-by-point analysis that has been done effectively by numerous folks including Denise Minger [http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/]. But I am guessing she is also demonized already in this community. It is amazing how many other people are wrong and only a handful of ‘scientists/doctors” i.e. Campbell, Ornish, Esselstyn, Benard and McDougall have is figured out correctly.


Just a few more research tidbits from my growing two year assimilation of the research that all in here challenge me to come to terms with:

Mortality in British vegetarians: results from the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC-Oxford) - Am J Clin Nutr May 2009 vol. 89 no. 5 1613S-1619S - http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1613S.abstract


Objective: We present results on mortality among vegetarians and nonvegetarians in the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC-Oxford).

Conclusions: The mortality of both the vegetarians and the nonvegetarians in this study is low compared with national rates. Within the study, mortality from circulatory diseases and all causes is not significantly different between vegetarians and meat eaters, but the study is not large enough to exclude small or moderate differences for specific causes of death, and more research on this topic is required.


Effect of a High Saturated Fat and No-Starch Diet on Serum Lipid Subfractions in Patients With Documented Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease - Mayo Clinic Proceedings Volume 78, Issue 11 , Pages 1331-1336, November 2003 http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/jmcp/article/S0025-6196%2811%2962710-9/abstract

Objective: To determine whether a diet of high saturated fat and avoidance of starch (HSF-SA) results in weight loss without adverse effects on serum lipids in obese nondiabetic patients.

Conclusion: An HSF-SA diet results in weight loss after 6 weeks without adverse effects on serum lipid levels verified by nuclear magnetic resonance, and further weight loss with a lipid-neutral effect may persist for up to 52 weeks.


Meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies evaluating the association of saturated fat with cardiovascular disease. Am J Clin Nutr 2010;91:535–46. [http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/91/3/535.full.pdf]

Objective: The objective of this meta-analysis was to summarize the evidence related to the association of dietary saturated fat with risk of coronary heart disease (CHD), stroke, and cardiovascular disease (CVD; CHD inclusive of stroke) in prospective epidemiologic studies.

Conclusions: A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat.



I could go on citing from the reams of research I have done since my heart surgery but I think most of us know that I am speaking to a group of people that for all practical discussion purposes do not have ears to hear. So many confrontational remarks and/or attitudes regarding the poster’s [ME] need to accept the research. Again, I want to thank the community here for giving me the reason to revisit my research journey in detail to respond intelligently to the comments/attacks in this thread. It is now even more apparent to me the nature of the diet wars and the radical zealousness of this community. But please don’t tell me I need to read the research and I need to stop refusing to join modern nutrition understanding. The saturated fat = high cholesterol = heart disease is the simplistic and aging understanding of heart disease.

As I said earlier in this post – if all you have is more name-calling, demonizing your opponents and vague general references to the overwhelming evidence foe a low fat/high starch diet save yourself the time of posting because I assure you without direct links to specific third-party peer-reviewed journals you will not even get my attention.


Anyone from any diet/nutrition camp who thinks they have all the details of human nutrition, physiology and disease all figured out is someone I don't bother to listen to.

As I said I could go on and even engage in fruitful dialogue regarding the science and the issues but alas I think we all know that isn’t going to happen in this forum. Which brings me to my concluding point. My experience in this forum is that it is primarily a collection of zealots [various degrees and nuances of zealousness no doubt] who are not really open to dialogue about the science. But rather are about proselytizing folks into their particular diet world view and demonizing those that disagree with them.

The truth for me is the was not a very visitor friendly place to engage in helpful conversation. As I said the demonizing:


I especially hate Masterjohn. How dare that charilton have a PhD from my alma mater (Uconn), he's an embarrasment to the entire university. /JosephJac


And yet he is the one with the Ph.D in Nutritional Sciences

the likes of Taubes, Masterjohn, Davis, and Lustwig /vgpedlr

Uffe Ravnskov, Gary Taubes, Robert H. Lustig,Chris Masterjohn are for me only criminals / ulialen


Obvious emotion laden disdain for these people? Not factual disagreement with them.

The continual character attacks that have nothing to do with the underlying science:
promoted by a guy who has never had a good handle on his weight/health as an adult and is purporting to offer advice on same to the public / f1jim


like the mammoth logic-chopping essays of Chris Masterjohn /dstewar



And of course the religious zealots who no one of the regular community gate keepers appears willing to corral:

Whether you are Paleo, Locarb, Vegan, AntiGluten, Fruitarian, etc. etc. etc, I think we can all meet each other halfway and agree that this world has a finite amount of natural resources. Should we squander them because a few individuals refuse to make simple dietary changes?

Absolutely this is "If you aren't with us, you're against us." Stop wasting all our fresh water and resources on raising ani-mals because you lazy bastards won't get to the gym. That might sound a little harsh, but there are other people on this planet besides you. / bigscaryguylol



I hate going there when i debate with Paleo supporters. But it's true, Soon our species will cross a threshold in our carrying capacity and we will have to pragmatically make a choice... Continue with our current ideas and ways of living and die, or change. Our ancestors in the ice age did what they had to do to survive and we must do the same.. How very human of us.
/ JosephJac


All these things coalesce to create a very unfriendly, unwelcoming environment. It is your community [you gate keepers – you know who you are]. It is your choice to continue to allow it to function in such a dogmatic manner. Again, I thank you for creating the impetus for me to organize my findings in the research literature to respond to this thread. I wish you all well in health and life.
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Re: WOW

Postby f1jim » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:30 pm

Sorry you find the environment unfriendly and useless in your search for the best possible treatment of your heart disease. It appears we are all so jaded we can't begin to be objective in these matters . So good luck with your ongoing search for the best possible dietary advice in stopping the progression of this disease. I certainly hope you achieve more success than Dr. Atkins or Jimmy Moore. Certainly the comparisons to our nutritional leaders wouldn't move you, either.
All of us wish you the best success and a positive outcome. Clearly we have nothing more to offer you. On behalf of the dozens of people I know personally that have rendered heart disease a non-issue in their life with this program we do hope you find your truth soon.
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While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at https://www.drmcdougall.com/james-brown/
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Re: WOW

Postby vgpedlr » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:36 pm

This is a support forum for those that choose to follow the recommendations of Dr. John McDougall and Jeff Novick RD. It is not a debate site.

You are not satisfied with the results shown by Kempner, Pritikin, McDougall, Ornish, Esselstyn and Fuhrman?

I am.
I've experienced the health benefits, and seen it in others.

You are impressed by Lustig, Davis, Masterjohn et al?
I'm not. That is why I am here.

You probably won't find what you're looking for here. Good luck in continuing your research, I hope you find what works best.
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Re: WOW

Postby veggylvr » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:31 pm

Plant positive has done an amazing job detailing the scientific evidence, so if you had actually watched his videos, you would begin to see what we understand. Here’s a link. It’s a long series but exhaustively researched, with the specific studies noted, and well worth watching.

http://www.youtube.com/user/PrimitiveNutrition

You can quibble with the size of Esselystyn’s original study (he’s releasing a much larger one soon), but those were the sickest of patients, who had all had multiple heart surgeries, stents, and bypasses. Some weren’t expected to live more than 2 years, yet after adopting a whole food plant-based diet, they all survived the next 10 years without further heart events.

By contrast, where is the evidence that a low carb/high fat diet reverses heart disease? People like Atkins, Taubes, and Eades have had decades to produce these results. All anyone needs to do is look at the diets of some of the world’s longest-lived and healthiest populations – the rural Chinese, or Okinawans, for instance - to see the health benefits of a whole food, primarily plant-based diet.

You should be aware that many of the Mediterranean diet studies have been paid for by olive oil companies or governments highly influenced by them, and the benefits are better attributed to the increase in fruits and vegetables, as opposed to the “good fat” of olive oil. The olive oil just gets the press, for obvious reasons.

I believe Ornish has written about the study you sited, and he made clear that the subjects were not compliant with his diet. They were just told to eat low fat, but they actually didn’t. That is the problem with so many “low fat” studies. The subjects are still eating around 36% fat, when the SAD is 39%, so yes, it’s slightly lower fat compared to SAD, but not actually low fat whole food, which is what we eat here at under 10% fat.

Campbell selectively used data sympathetic towards his anti-animal protein bias and completely ignored that data that quite possibly indicts wheat gluten. I am not going to do a point-by-point analysis that has been done effectively by numerous folks including Denise Minger [http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/]. But I am guessing she is also demonized already in this community. It is amazing how many other people are wrong and only a handful of ‘scientists/doctors” i.e. Campbell, Ornish, Esselstyn, Benard and McDougall have is figured out correctly.


Denise Minger has a liberal arts degree. She is certainly entertaining. All the high fat apologists are, which is why they're persuasive. But when you really look at it objectively, it makes absolutely no sense that someone with no formal background in science could pick apart a peer-reviewed study, such as the China Study. I mean, the results were reviewed by the world’s top scientists, yet we’re expected to believe that no one caught these supposed errors in Campbell’s data until a quick-witted blogger did? It’s just silly.

In fact, that was actually what triggered a seed of doubt in me when I was on the low carb side. I read Campbell’s gracious response to Minger’s amateur attempt at scientific analysis, and I was impressed enough to explore more about who he was. He’s a highly regarded researcher, and I’d trust his conclusions far more than a blogger with no discernable source of income (I now question who is funding these high fat blogs. The meat and dairy industry has much to gain in keeping us eating their products).

I’ll let others address the individual studies, but I will go back to one of my personal questions. You developed cardiovascular disease somehow. How can you bet your life that it was simply because you weren’t getting enough fat or animal products? Because that’s what people like Jimmy Moore are advocating.

One thing that’s for sure is that there is absolutely no credible evidence to link fruits and vegetables to CVD. And scant, if any, to link whole grains and starches. So, why not give that type of diet a chance to repair the arterial damage? Rather than bank on these unproven cholesterol theories and the size of your particles, wouldn’t you be better off eating a diet that is known to lead to longevity and health?

Research the longest-lived, healthiest populations, and it's glaringly evident (don't fall, as I did, for the assertion that the Inuits were healthy - they weren't - and they weren't long-lived). Whole plant foods and minimal, if any, animal products is the safest diet for someone with your health concerns.
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Re: WOW

Postby veggylvr » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:53 pm

You can watch this video of Dr. Esselstyn. Please pay close attention to the striking improvements indicated in the angiograms of his patients (some of which were already posted in this thread).

What low carb advocate has ever produced this kind of documentation to show real, quantifiable CVD improvement? They haven't. They won't. They can't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYTf0z_zVs0
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Re: WOW

Postby groanofthewind » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:57 am

cabg_survivor wrote:
I am not vegan and don't care for animal rights issues, that's not why most of us are here and eat a starch centered diet. /groanofthewind


And then you proceed to once again build the Jimmy Moore straw man and tear him down wonderfully. And yet the only scientific reference is to the Ornish study. [See above for the weaknesses therein]. You are sarcastic about LDL-P when current research shows a very keen interest in the LDL subfractions and their role in CVD See above also].

.[/b]

Where exactly was I sarcastic about Ldl-p? I specifically said the the characters that crow over "large and fluffy" Ldl being "non athrogenic" are complete charlatans. You know that Thomas dayspring told jimmy he's at very high risk of athroslcerosis and he needs to drasitically lower his saturated fat intake?
Ldl-p and apoB are useful subfractions in a certain subset of people with diabetes when their LDl-p and ldl-c are discordant. But particle size has absolutely zero prediction value when particle count is accounted for. Even Peter attia acknowledges this in his Straight dope on cholesterol blog post.
For people without metabolic sydrome LDL-c tracks closely to LDl-p. I have been reading paleo low carb forums for years and every single person I have seen with a high LDL who has had an NMR also shows they also have a high LDL-p. Peter attia himself also has a low LDL-p but he also has a low LDL of around 70.

For decades the low carbers admitted LDL went up but HDL did as well which they thought was more important. Despite the fact that HDL raising has never been shown to be a useful heart disease prevention method.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 195554.htm

Now that Paleo gurus have acknowledged that LDL-p has great predictive value and that saturated fats raise LDL-c and LDL-p they seem to have switched their stance to saying that saturated fats don't raise cholesterol, that they only do in short term studies. Which is complete rubbish.
Cordain is the only one with a bit of common sense on this topic and he has published papers showing that the optimal LDL range is around 70 and acknowledges that saturated fat down regulates LDL receptors.

You posted studies on A1C and CRP being aggravating risk factors for heart disease. And yeah? That has been acknowledged has been known for decades and doesn't at all contradict the research on cholesterol and LDL being the driving factor in atherosclerosis. And low carb weight loss studies prove nothing. Basically all weight loss studies improve markers, but what happens in maintenance is way more important because you can't lose weight for ever. LDL-c and Ldl-p drasitcally improve on a whole foods plant based diet without weight loss and insulin sensitivity also improves without weight loss. You won't find that with low carb because they need weight loss to occur to make them at least not look disastrous. Which is shown in that other study you posted showing a high saturated fat diet didn't make markers worse, you know that's a very poor showing for low carb right? Lipid markers should improve during weight loss, yet they didn't even improve on when the subjects were overweight.
If you keep browsing low carb/paleo gurus and blogs you'll eventually start to see through their extremely dodgy rationalizations. I was a low carber for years and thought their science and conclusions were sound as well. I actually thought doctors like Dr Eades and bloggers like Mark sisson were more informed on athrosclerosis than Nobel prize winners like Brown and goldstein who have spent decades researching and understanding blood lipids and cell biology.

Here's a rebuttal on the meta analysis on saturated fat and the myriad of factors they didn't account for. When you're comparing junk refined carbs and vegetable oil junk food to saturated fat it's unlikely to be much difference, as neither are health foods.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/91/3/497.full
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Re: WOW

Postby JosephJac » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:47 am

Hey, best of luck finding your path to health OP. If you find our opinions here Bias and unfounded, then by all means find information that makes sense to you. Just be aware that behind all of the "fire and zealotry", many posters here really have peoples best interest at heart and are providing Their evidence that a certain lifestyle can control heart disease.

About my Chris Masterjohn Comment, be aware that the popular Youtube/forum post
"/trollface" denotes a joke, a false post. I fully realize that Masterjohn worked hard to get his PH.D That does not mean i agree with his opinion, nor do some of my former professors at the very school he earned it from.
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Re: WOW

Postby EvanG » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:49 am

You've clearly put a lot of work into that post. I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to get out of it, but I have a few general tips for you.

* It is hard to get people to engage you in conversation when you are calling them bullies.

* It is generally considered rude to use bold text and override the formatting of the site, so that your post is hard to read.

* It is good to be consistent. So, if you complain that McDougall doesn't have enough peer reviewed articles, you should hold Minger, Taubes, et al. to the same standard. If having a large number of peer reviewed studies is a big criterion for you, you should give Campbell due consideration.

* One note about interpreting studies: The reason for increasing the number of people in a study is to obtain better accuracy. So, if you are looking to quantify a small improvement (say 5% less heart attacks), then you will need a large sample. If you are trying to quantify a huge change, like somewhere between 80 and 100% less heart attacks, then a sample of 15 is perfectly adequate. An example of this is a coin flip. If a coin is biased to return heads 51% of the time, it will take a lot of flips to figure this out. It would take something like 2500 flips to get this to within 1% accuracy. On the other hand, The odds of it coming up heads 10 times in a row is 0.1%. So, if you get this result, you can be very sure that the coin is biased.

If you are doing diet studies, then a smaller sample is the only way you have any control over or any clue about what people eat. There will never be a long term large sample study where food intake strictly conforms to a particular diet, because people will not submit to it, and no one has the money to do it.

Both Ornish and Esselstyn had revolutionary studies. Personally, I was more impressed by Esselstyn's study than Ornish's, because Esselstyn got such great results with only diet and very simple rules. The results: There were 49 cardiac events in the few years leading up to the study. After the study started, there were zero more events in 12 years. What do you suppose the odds are that that is a coincidence? Intuitively, you can probably figure this out. What Esselstyn lacked in a control group he made up for with the statistical likelihood of achieving that result due to chance.
-----
Started in June 2012 at 39
Lost 25 lbs. Feel great.
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Re: WOW

Postby colonyofcells » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:06 pm

High fat diets have no appeal for me since I am from asia and starch based asia has no history of high fat diets until modern times when the diabetes epidemic started in asia. The modern trend in asia is more processed food, less plants, more animal products, less carb, more fat, etc. resulting in the current diabetes epidemic. I see no good reasons to copy the high fat diet of the Inuits and I prefer to copy instead the 1949 okinawa diet. High fat diets look quite alien to me.
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Re: WOW

Postby veggylvr » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:31 pm

Both Ornish and Esselstyn had revolutionary studies. Personally, I was more impressed by Esselstyn's study than Ornish's, because Esselstyn got such great results with only diet and very simple rules. The results: There were 49 cardiac events in the few years leading up to the study. After the study started, there were zero more events in 12 years. What do you suppose the odds are that that is a coincidence? Intuitively, you can probably figure this out. What Esselstyn lacked in a control group he made up for with the statistical likelihood of achieving that result due to chance.


This is such an excellent point, EvanG. I just watched the Esselstyn video again that I posted above, and he talks about how often he met with the subjects, even having them to his home once a month during the first 5 years, and meeting twice a month to go over every morsel they ate. You just couldn't have that kind of compliance for that length of time with a larger study.

Six failed to comply with the diet initially and were dropped, one participant (out of the 18 who remained) got lazy after 6 years and began eating higher fat and processed foods (though no meat), and he was the only one that had another heart event. What are the odds of that?

I really hope the OP watches the Esselstyn video and keeps an open mind. The angiograms and details of the improvements in CVD are so compelling that it's hard to fathom how anyone could not be convinced of the benefits of a whole food, plant-based diet.

Things can get confrontational here, like on any message board, but I know everyone in this thread has your best interests at heart, OP. Please take some time to at least look objectively at the resources we've offered.
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Re: WOW

Postby dinska » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:28 pm

There really is such a thing as cutting off your nose to spite your face here. What's really the harm in trying since you are still waiting for proof and are not convinced the premise of the diet is wrong? The thing with science is that it always marches on. It never just sits and gloats about being right.
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Re: WOW

Postby Ltldogg » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:40 pm

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”

― Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Re: WOW

Postby ulialen » Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:38 pm

"Cholesterol LDL is the most universal recognized risk factor for hearth disease."

I want that all the people that come to read this thread remember this phrase that is known from more than 50 years.

If this phrase is universally accepted from more than 50 years in the scientific community, it is thank to very big scientists as Brown and Goldstein that have won noble price.
There are 13 scientists that have won noble price for research that have given evidence of this phrase:
"Cholesterol LDL is the most universal recognized risk factor for hearth disease."

So before to give credit to such "holy men" as Taubes or Masterjohn, think to this phrase supported by 13 noble prices.

The second most accepted risk factor for almost all the chronic diseases are the saturated fats. Again this phrase is supported by Brown and Goldstein in their article that won noble price.

is there someone that compare Taubes or Masterjohn to Brown and Goldstein?
Ehi carb survivor, really you think that you can compare Taubes to Brown and Goldstein?
I have more probability to survive to high cholesterol LDL and saturated fats than to your nonsense.
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