by JohnAllenJAM » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:42 pm
Hi Parsley Patch and Veggylvr
Nice to connect, this is actually the first time I've posted on Dr. McDougall's Board. I've known and have learned from him for many years and consider him a giant. I am also a protege of Dr. Fuhrman, another giant, and Dr's. Campbell and Esselstyn, Giants, Giants! So, I couldn't resist jumping into this conversation, I've been reading.
Rest assured, that Dr.Fuhrman didn't call the fact that native people have existed on starches for thousands of years "silly", or the Starch Solution silly for that matter.
We really have to be careful about interpretations of things as a community. and surely there have been some (not all) very inaccurate stories flying around, emotionally driven, on all fronts.
What was silly (and I agree) was that Dr McDougall and he were debating this at all! That native people have existed on starches for thousands of years is true, and DrFuhrman knows it too. It just didn't need to be debated; Dr. McDougall had done a great job making that point, particularly in The Starch Solution. That's why it was "silly" that it was even being debated.
I'm confident Dr. Fuhrman, was not debating that, nor was he ever debating the point that starches can be a significant part of a high nutrient density diet. I have heard him talk about this many times over the years.
It's the whole idea of "based", that I think has been throwing people off.
Starch based vs Vegetable based, is a great marketing thing if you want a diet war over simple-minded, single-variable ideas, but I know Dr. Fuhrman never wanted a diet war, and certainly not with Dr. McDougall of all people. It just got set up that way from the start, at the VegSource conference, when that question was asked back in I think 2006.
DrFuhrman is exploring a whole new aspect of the way we are eating, and breaking new ground into high nutrient density eating, and its effects on detoxification, addictive food drives, health, disease reversal, aging, and longevity, in addition to weight loss; hence a High Nutrient Density diet style.
Nutritional Research is exploding with new insights in this area and for those who are really into nutrition, it's exciting and even fun to pay attention to and tweak our diets as we learn more and try new foods or eat them in new ways.
Both these styles of eating are effective. Who would debate that? They are both nutrient rich, just different diet styles that probably appeal to different people at different stages of transitioning to and learning about a plant based / plant strong (predominant) / nutrient rich and / or vegan diet.
On a given day, even though I promote high nutrient density - nutrient rich eating, I might eat more starchy vegetables than greens (by calorie) if I need more calories, on other days it might be less. This is not a point for division, it's just dietary strategy, and I'm sure your point is now fully understood.
Knowing Dr.Fuhrman, I am confident that offending his colleagues was not his intention. He references their studies/work in his books and courses, why would he do that?
Are you also aware of the fact that there are whole other factions in the field of nutrition, such as the Naturally Nutrient Rich coalition, lead by the beef and dairy board? They've been promoting the nutrient dense "nutrient rich" campaign for years now, as something new since 2005 when the dietary guidelines focused on nutrient density as the cornerstone of nutrition.
They've been coming out with the NNR - the Naturally Nutrient Rich Score, and other "ANDI" type nutrient scoring systems (among many others), misleading people on the nutrient richness of animal foods. It's a Trojan horse type deal. And not everyone paying attention to nutrition is tuned into this community or the vegetarian community (which I think Dr. McDougall said is only approximately 6 millions strong; they are learning from other sources.
They've been selling the American population that milk and dairy are "nutrient rich"! I"m sure glad Dr. Fuhrman delved into this idea of nutrient density and defined it right, because if not, you'd have whole new generations of people thinking even better about categories of old foods that are bad for us and the planet at a time when it is "getting hot as hell".
This is in part what gave rise to all this new focus. Certainly, animal products and refined foods are nutrient poor, so DrFuhrman and company (myself included) set out to really bring this idea home. I don't ever remember in the past 7 years ever being motivated by trying to differentiate within the plant based or vegan community. This is a nutrition field in "general" idea.
And I too have found that this new context reveals some new perspectives on what were once seemingly ironclad ideas that I have believed or didn't know more about for more than 25 years, and they have influenced changes.
That Dr. Fuhrman may have made what appeared to be antagonistic statements, was science-based and because of breaking new ground, not because he intended to be antagonistic. That was not the intent. I know this for fact. Call me on it if you like. It's just a new view things.
I believe, a reason why Dr.Fuhrman puts vegetables at the base of his pyramid or promotes them in such large quantities on his plate, is simple... For example: when you make a salad, does it start with greens or potatoes? For most people it’s greens, because they are the most nutrient-rich foods, the lowest in calories and you can eat them in the largest volume without consuming excess calories.
That shouldn't start a fight between "greens or potatoes"! Should it?
Fruits, beans, starchy vegetables, whole grains, nuts and seeds, avocado etc. can be added to this bed or "base" of greens so to speak, in progressively smaller amounts as nutrient density generally decreases and calorie density generally increases, with exceptions.
That doesn't mean that starchy vegetables aren't nutrient dense or nutrient rich, they are, it simply means that greens are more nutrient rich than ANY other category of food. And given the fact that most people need to lose weight, even when they think they don't, it's not a bad idea to eat more greens, and colored non starchy vegetables in the largest volume, for both nutrient and caloric purposes all the time, and for all these other reasons, not just when you need to lose weight.
The McDougall Plan for maximum weight loss, reinforced this point in it's own unique way.
But how much a person eats of all these other food categories including, but not limited to starches, is dependent on their individualities, condition, metabolism etc.
This isn't really even a debate, that's why it was probably called silly. I'm sure it was never a comment made to offend Dr. McDougall or anyone; if anything it was more of an acknowledgement, that this was a conversation that really wasn't needed amongst too very smart men in this field. You know, a 'we both know this so why are we debating this type of thing'.
This has been a battle of semantics really, because, as I see it, what was actually being debated was never really clarified, not in the debate or since.
And of course there was more to this recent uprising, that singled out Dr.Fuhrman than green vegetables or starches. I think his reply, shed some light on that; and where needed, I think apologies have been made.
Both these men are up to different aspects of study within the plant based / nutrition community. It's not just a get along with your colleagues thing. This is simply nutritional research in action and people can agree to disagree, especially when a whole new idea is being revealed, even if it seems like the same thing. But it doesn't have to turn indecent or political. In addition to all the points they commonly promote, each is breaking new ground for us all for sure.
I learned a ton about starches in Dr. McDougalls book, among so many other new and revealing ideas.
So let's learn from them both. It's all amazing. I look forward to reading further findings, books etc, from both of these leaders throughout the year.
Life is short and both (all) of these men are warriors in this field. You seem like very caring people who want the best for this community we all participate in.