Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

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Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

Postby Dr. Fuhrman » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:40 pm

It’s become clearer to me than ever before that my ushering in a new message, a new eating-style with a unique emphasis, has really created quite a stir. I will get into this more but first, I want to respond to the troubling posts in this forum, and to the specific points that have been raised. Since we are all part of the same health-seeking community, I ask that you use the forums for what they are supposed to be, to discuss things and ask questions, rather than pass judgment on me or any other person that may have differing viewpoints.

Many of you know me well enough to know that I am relentless in offering the best nutritional wisdom I’ve gleaned. I have seen thousands of patients over the last 22 years in my private practice of nutritional medicine and I enjoy helping people with serious conditions fight back and reclaim their health. I am passionate and fight very hard to make sure these individuals succeed. Nutrition has been my passion for over 40 years and I hold strong opinions on what is best for my patients as these opinions have enabled dramatic disease-reversal with thousands of them. These successful outcomes are most dear to my heart as my patients know. My goal is to offer the most effective therapeutic protocols to prevent and reverse disease. My recommendations may run counter to other health professionals and my expression of that seems to have gotten me in trouble over here. Certainly my intent was not to offend anyone, or antagonize those with differing viewpoints.

We have all been debating nuances of nutrition for years. These debates include my friend Jeff Novick, part of this community, who I have known for 30 years. We have a strong friendship in spite of lively debates about some minor differences. I enjoy these private debates, especially when people are open to consider all the evidence. I ask you, in this forum, to make this debate one that is friendly, supportive and respectful. While it does not exonerate any of my negative comments, also not justified are the completely false negative comments have been publically aired against me for years from some in this group.

I once again, would like to apologize for offending or upsetting anyone; it was never my intent to do so. Some posts in my private membership site were taken out of context, but I realize, were stated with implications that could be misinterpreted. I regret having not chosen my words more carefully. Certainly, I can be accused of not being diplomatic enough. My goal is to make the public aware of possible health dangers; that is my first concern. I have the highest respect for my peers and have always seen us as having some differences, but mostly we are on the same page as we share a passion for helping people get their health back. Even though my recommendations and clinical experience may differ, I still recognize the important work of bettering the health and well-being of thousands that has been accomplished by Doctors McDougall, Esselstyn and Campbell.

The nutritarian diet-style is a new viewpoint in this field; I understand that alone is non-supportive to a degree with others in this community. I do not refer to my dietary recommendations as the Fuhrman diet or even the Eat to Live diet, because really, I have no one specific diet, but instead offer guidelines on how to devise the healthiest diet for individual needs and differences. A “nutritarian” or a “nutritarian diet” refers to a person who recognizes that the quality of their food intake matters and pays particular attention to achieving comprehensive micronutrient adequacy without excess calories, understanding its importance to both prevent and treat health conditions and promote longevity. Therefore, I advocate an adequate consumption of high micronutrient plant food to promote cellular efficiency, and maximize cellular repair, self-cleansing functions and protection against cancer. In addition, I pay attention to the effects micronutrient excellence has to remove food addiction and cravings and restore instinctual hunger sensations.

A nutritarian approach is based on nutritional excellence, and is not a one diet fits all idea. It seeks to help people maximize micronutrients while minimizing the consumption of excess calories. Therefore, I allow a wide range of dietary possibilities, adjusting my dietary recommendations for world-class professional athletes, for diabetics, who in my view, should not be eating too much fruit or white potatoes, for overweight people who need to watch nut intake and even for the rare individual who requires a small amounts of animal products in their diet to thrive. I also allow people to adjust the starchy vegetable or whole grain portion to meet caloric requirements and individual needs. There are many McDougallers who are already in-line with nutritarian guidelines while they also live within the guidelines of Dr. McDougall’s work.

I have been working extensively on, and I am excited about, research studies on the nutritarian approach with major research institutions around the country. I believe this approach is the most effective for weight loss compared to any other studied and tested approach and time will tell if these controlled studies prove that or not. I attempt to be as scientifically accurate as possible, and will always look to rectify any potential errors in my work and respond appropriately to any legitimate constructive criticism. For Dr. Campbell to say that he will no longer trust anything I say or do again, because of an error made in a research project we were both involved in, is simply uncalled for. Neither he nor I made the calculation error and the person that did, acknowledged the error and appropriately took care of it. A public correction to the journal was made by the researcher who made the error. Most importantly, I hope his unfair statements will stop here and elsewhere and not hurt our common goals or interfere with future research initiatives.

I did and still do believe that the data from that collection of patient charts from many years ago demonstrated it was the most effective results ever recorded in a review from one practice or one method trial. However, I never made that claim again and removed all mention of that study on my website and anywhere else I could, once the calculation error was brought to light. However, even with the correction there was still a mean weight loss of 37.6 pounds on those who had two year data points. Certainly, this paper is outdated and a brief patient visit is not the best educational tool to teach an entire dietary program. More importantly, thousands of people have successfully lost dramatic amounts of weight and kept it off since the publication and popularity of Eat to Live. Further data will be forthcoming from research teams in the near future that accurately represent this protocol.

As Arthur Schopenhauer says, it is not unusual that people with different and novel ways of seeing things are initially ridiculed and attacked. I understand I hold a contrary position to one some of you may hold dear, and this could make some uncomfortable and even angry, but certainly I hope our mutual interests and viewpoints are much larger than any of those differences. So I ask you, to check in with your agenda. Is it to get closer to new truths, or simply malign someone who doesn’t share your exact view, because of some mistakes I may/have made on board politics. Surely no one here is perfect either.

I do hope as Dr. McDougall expressed, that some fences can be mended, and we can all develop more respectful, considerate and constructive relationships. I did appreciate the friendly words he offered me when I came to his advanced study weekend. I am grateful for the opportunity to positively influence the health of thousands of people and appreciate others who do the same. We all have the same mission, and I agree that we can accomplish more if we are working cooperatively and peacefully with each other.

I wish you all great health and a peaceful and pleasurable life.


Addendum: Addressing the Mark Simon coalition:

Mark Simon and his coalition of advisors put in a huge amount of hours to search for and develop attacks against me, but they are inaccurate and undeserved. I stand behind the value and integrity of the ANDI scores and regardless that the ORAC, or any other parameter may have some flaws, it is one of 35 other parameters that are measured in equal amounts. No scoring system can be perfect and I updated the scores recently as science advances. Nor do I teach that the ANDI is the only thing one should consider in devising a healthy diet, but it is a valuable tool that successfully motivates people to eat more of the most powerful anti-cancer foods.

My comments concerning Dr. Campbell or Dr. Esselstyn were never personal. I only questioned the safety of a diet excluding nuts and seeds from heart patients, based on scientific grounds. That is not bashing anyone, but instead a serious concern that I need to express to my patients, with advanced heart disease, attempting reversal. I have not published any studies on the supplements I sell, and the vegan and near vegan patients with Parkinson’s and other neurologic issues, found by me to have non-existent DHA levels on their blood tests is also an important and significant finding. Those findings are not limited to just two well-known individuals. Mr. Simon should have checked his facts before making these claims.

As Mr. Simon also fabricated, the NHA also did not disassociate themselves and our relationship remains strong. We had grown much larger than the NHA itself, they could not handle the workload, and it was mutually decided we would be better served as a separate entity. Obviously, the recognition of toxic and real hunger had to be around for centuries as human’s hunger sensations have not changed in the last few thousand years. Nevertheless, I have advanced the science and physiological understanding of this important issue, including the working and timing of these sensations with the digestive cycle and their connection to biochemistry of obesity. I also have not mischaracterized any data on resistant starch and recent studies corroborate my data as correct.

It also is revealing that in spite of their extensive efforts, the Mark Simon coalition did not come up with any study with better long term weight loss results, he merely showed an article that reported on a number of individuals interviewed across the country who had managed to lose lots of weight. It was not one physician’s office or even a trial of any kind.

Lastly, it is clear that Mark Simon heads a team effort against me, planning this attack for many months. All the animosity and preoccupation with attacking me is simply unjustified and needlessly divisive. I could continue to address all he smears and half-truths and untruths, but I do not feel that would serve this community. I am aligned with Dr. McDougall in his call for unity and respect.
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Re: Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

Postby Grammy Ginger » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm

This is very courageous and appreciated. After all the debate is just apples and oranges....or more specifically beans and potatoes. Thank you.
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Re: Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

Postby f1jim » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:24 pm

I think it would be hard to argue too vociferously over the points that Dr. Fuhrman has raised. I am inclined to leave the post and whatever comments that follow and let the thread live out it's natural progression. I do wonder though how similar posts are treated on Dr. Fuhrmans website? Would he let a critics comment stand?
I agree with Dr. McDougall that it's important for all the plant based nutritional leaders to focus their efforts into a cohesive alliance to awaken the world from it's nutritional slumber. I also hope that the doctors themselves can refrain from shooting themselves in the foot and will remember that alliance in their comments to their respective followers.
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While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at https://www.drmcdougall.com/james-brown/
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Re: Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

Postby rijman » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:42 pm

f1jim wrote:I agree with Dr. McDougall that it's important for all the plant based nutritional leaders to focus their efforts into a cohesive alliance to awaken the world from it's nutritional slumber. I also hope that the doctors themselves can refrain from shooting themselves in the foot and will remember that alliance in their comments to their respective followers.
f1jim

You are preaching to the choir, I'm all for a coalition/alliance of plant based doctors, nutritionists and professionals coming together to deliver a clear and concise message to the American public about diet and disease. 3 of the top doctors in the field are interested in this concept and I'm sure there are many more. Dr. Fuhrman is a well known doctor with a large following, his inclusion in the coalition would be a benefit to everyone involved, if they can get along.
I may be naive.
But I still believe the truth will be revealed if enough light is shined on the subject.
Right now we are dealing with massive ignorance.

John McDougall, MD
(McDougall Discussion Board, posted 7/2/13)
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Re: Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

Postby Spiral » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:54 pm

Dr. Fuhrman,

Can you explain why you have associated yourself with the "Track Your Plaque" web site?

What is your opinion of the other doctors who are also associated with this web site? For example, Dr. Davis, who recently published a book titled "Wheat Belly," which implies that many of the diseases Americans suffer from are causes by consuming wheat products.
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Re: Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

Postby ParsleyPatch » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:15 pm

I would be a little more inclined toward sympathy and understanding of Dr. Fuhrman's position on this matter if I hadn't heard him say Dr. McDougall's starch-based program, based on thousands of years of native people existing on starches, was "kind of silly." --- a direct quote, in public no less. This one really sticks in my craw, along with calling Dr. McDougall's superior work the "white-rice, white-potato diet," putting it in a false light.

This does not sound like "working cooperatively and peacefully with each other" to me.

All I know is that Drs. McDougall, Campbell, Esselstyn, Barnard, and quite a few others do work well together, with unity and peace, already.

And, I might add, this is a lot of free advertisement on a forum paid for by Dr. McDougall. I hope he got to approve it first.

I'm all for unity on the plant-based movement, too, but unfortunately, I remain dubious.
One who is forever grateful to Dr. McDougall for showing me the way to optimal health!
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Re: Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

Postby Waingapu » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:15 pm

Religions and diets, there are lots of good ones out there.

As Deng Xiaoping often said,
"It doesn't matter whether a cat is white or black, as long as it catches mice."
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Re: Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

Postby patty » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:34 pm

Wow... they just took the stickies down.

Aloha, patty
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Re: Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

Postby jay kaye » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:48 pm

Dr. Furhman,

I was impressed with your talk at the February 2012 McDougall Advance Study Weekend. When I heard you speak, I found very little differences in your recommendations and those of Dr. McDougall and others. As I remembered you and Dr. McDougall quiped; he said that he wanted to live to be 85 on his diet and you replied that you wanted to live to be 100 on yours. I do hope that you will be back to speak there again.

I am even more impressed by you courage to post the above. To me this is a win-win-win situation. The last win being my health and the health of those I care about. Thank you for making a difference and advancing the public's knowledge about the relationship between health and nutrition.

j
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Re: Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

Postby landog » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:05 pm

Dr. Fuhrman wrote:I am aligned with Dr. McDougall in his call for unity and respect.
I have great respect for Dr. Esselstyn and T. Colin Campbell. They strike me as very reasonable men.

So, respectfully, I would suggest that your efforts toward unity begin and end with mending your relationship with Dr. Esselstyn and T. Colin Campbell, rather than with posts in an internet forum.

Looking forward to that day...
-dog
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Re: Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

Postby ParsleyPatch » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:15 pm

landog wrote:
Dr. Fuhrman wrote:I am aligned with Dr. McDougall in his call for unity and respect.
I have great respect for Dr. Esselstyn and T. Colin Campbell. They strike me as very reasonable men.

So, respectfully, I would suggest that your efforts toward unity begin and end with mending your relationship with Dr. Esselstyn and T. Colin Campbell, rather than with posts in an internet forum.

Looking forward to that day...
-dog

I second this..... and was thinking the exact same thing, landog. Thanks for saying it.
One who is forever grateful to Dr. McDougall for showing me the way to optimal health!
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Re: Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

Postby veggylvr » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:18 pm

I once again, would like to apologize for offending or upsetting anyone; it was never my intent to do so. Some posts in my private membership site were taken out of context, but I realize, were stated with implications that could be misinterpreted. I regret having not chosen my words more carefully. Certainly, I can be accused of not being diplomatic enough. My goal is to make the public aware of possible health dangers; that is my first concern. I have the highest respect for my peers and have always seen us as having some differences, but mostly we are on the same page as we share a passion for helping people get their health back. Even though my recommendations and clinical experience may differ, I still recognize the important work of bettering the health and well-being of thousands that has been accomplished by Doctors McDougall, Esselstyn and Campbell.


I commend you for making this statement and hope you truly mean it - although it may come a bit late for Dr. Campbell and Dr. Esselstyn, and some of us McDougallers who have been offended by your baseless implication that his diet isn't nutritionally adequate or possibly even detrimental.

I also agree with ParsleyPatch that your post here reads as an advertisment for your dietary viewpoint, which would be fine if the stickies of the previous threads haven't, in fact, been removed, but it wouldn't be fair to allow this thread to stand alone. I hope the moderators aren't going to remove all the other comments.

The issue, at least for me, isn't that you're promoting such a novel new plant-based approach, but rather that you AREN'T. Your approach isn't significantly different from what is advised here, or by Esselstyn or many other plant-based experts, yet you try to make it seem different (and better) by exaggerating small variables, such as nuts or potatoes.

Stop doing that! Try to get along with your peers and not diminish their work by trying to set yours apart. If you genuinely want a respectful collaboration, then I suggest you use Dr. McDougall as your model. He doesn't ever speak badly about you or call your dietary advice "silly", even in areas where he may disagree.

If you can act in the same gracious, professional manner going forward, then there may be hope for healing and unification, which is what the majority of us want.
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Re: Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

Postby Adrienne » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:54 pm

I just wanted to mention that the threads that were stickies at the top were not deleted. They were simply removed as stickies. Since these threads were locked long ago when the stickies came off they fell back a number of pages, to the date of the final post, whenever that was.

But the threads still exist those who want to read them:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31586

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31014
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Re: Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

Postby JohnAllenJAM » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:42 pm

Hi Parsley Patch and Veggylvr

Nice to connect, this is actually the first time I've posted on Dr. McDougall's Board. I've known and have learned from him for many years and consider him a giant. I am also a protege of Dr. Fuhrman, another giant, and Dr's. Campbell and Esselstyn, Giants, Giants! So, I couldn't resist jumping into this conversation, I've been reading.

Rest assured, that Dr.Fuhrman didn't call the fact that native people have existed on starches for thousands of years "silly", or the Starch Solution silly for that matter.

We really have to be careful about interpretations of things as a community. and surely there have been some (not all) very inaccurate stories flying around, emotionally driven, on all fronts.

What was silly (and I agree) was that Dr McDougall and he were debating this at all! That native people have existed on starches for thousands of years is true, and DrFuhrman knows it too. It just didn't need to be debated; Dr. McDougall had done a great job making that point, particularly in The Starch Solution. That's why it was "silly" that it was even being debated.

I'm confident Dr. Fuhrman, was not debating that, nor was he ever debating the point that starches can be a significant part of a high nutrient density diet. I have heard him talk about this many times over the years.

It's the whole idea of "based", that I think has been throwing people off.

Starch based vs Vegetable based, is a great marketing thing if you want a diet war over simple-minded, single-variable ideas, but I know Dr. Fuhrman never wanted a diet war, and certainly not with Dr. McDougall of all people. It just got set up that way from the start, at the VegSource conference, when that question was asked back in I think 2006.

DrFuhrman is exploring a whole new aspect of the way we are eating, and breaking new ground into high nutrient density eating, and its effects on detoxification, addictive food drives, health, disease reversal, aging, and longevity, in addition to weight loss; hence a High Nutrient Density diet style.

Nutritional Research is exploding with new insights in this area and for those who are really into nutrition, it's exciting and even fun to pay attention to and tweak our diets as we learn more and try new foods or eat them in new ways.

Both these styles of eating are effective. Who would debate that? They are both nutrient rich, just different diet styles that probably appeal to different people at different stages of transitioning to and learning about a plant based / plant strong (predominant) / nutrient rich and / or vegan diet.

On a given day, even though I promote high nutrient density - nutrient rich eating, I might eat more starchy vegetables than greens (by calorie) if I need more calories, on other days it might be less. This is not a point for division, it's just dietary strategy, and I'm sure your point is now fully understood.

Knowing Dr.Fuhrman, I am confident that offending his colleagues was not his intention. He references their studies/work in his books and courses, why would he do that?

Are you also aware of the fact that there are whole other factions in the field of nutrition, such as the Naturally Nutrient Rich coalition, lead by the beef and dairy board? They've been promoting the nutrient dense "nutrient rich" campaign for years now, as something new since 2005 when the dietary guidelines focused on nutrient density as the cornerstone of nutrition.

They've been coming out with the NNR - the Naturally Nutrient Rich Score, and other "ANDI" type nutrient scoring systems (among many others), misleading people on the nutrient richness of animal foods. It's a Trojan horse type deal. And not everyone paying attention to nutrition is tuned into this community or the vegetarian community (which I think Dr. McDougall said is only approximately 6 millions strong; they are learning from other sources.

They've been selling the American population that milk and dairy are "nutrient rich"! I"m sure glad Dr. Fuhrman delved into this idea of nutrient density and defined it right, because if not, you'd have whole new generations of people thinking even better about categories of old foods that are bad for us and the planet at a time when it is "getting hot as hell".

This is in part what gave rise to all this new focus. Certainly, animal products and refined foods are nutrient poor, so DrFuhrman and company (myself included) set out to really bring this idea home. I don't ever remember in the past 7 years ever being motivated by trying to differentiate within the plant based or vegan community. This is a nutrition field in "general" idea.

And I too have found that this new context reveals some new perspectives on what were once seemingly ironclad ideas that I have believed or didn't know more about for more than 25 years, and they have influenced changes.

That Dr. Fuhrman may have made what appeared to be antagonistic statements, was science-based and because of breaking new ground, not because he intended to be antagonistic. That was not the intent. I know this for fact. Call me on it if you like. It's just a new view things.

I believe, a reason why Dr.Fuhrman puts vegetables at the base of his pyramid or promotes them in such large quantities on his plate, is simple... For example: when you make a salad, does it start with greens or potatoes? For most people it’s greens, because they are the most nutrient-rich foods, the lowest in calories and you can eat them in the largest volume without consuming excess calories.

That shouldn't start a fight between "greens or potatoes"! Should it?

Fruits, beans, starchy vegetables, whole grains, nuts and seeds, avocado etc. can be added to this bed or "base" of greens so to speak, in progressively smaller amounts as nutrient density generally decreases and calorie density generally increases, with exceptions.

That doesn't mean that starchy vegetables aren't nutrient dense or nutrient rich, they are, it simply means that greens are more nutrient rich than ANY other category of food. And given the fact that most people need to lose weight, even when they think they don't, it's not a bad idea to eat more greens, and colored non starchy vegetables in the largest volume, for both nutrient and caloric purposes all the time, and for all these other reasons, not just when you need to lose weight.

The McDougall Plan for maximum weight loss, reinforced this point in it's own unique way.

But how much a person eats of all these other food categories including, but not limited to starches, is dependent on their individualities, condition, metabolism etc.

This isn't really even a debate, that's why it was probably called silly. I'm sure it was never a comment made to offend Dr. McDougall or anyone; if anything it was more of an acknowledgement, that this was a conversation that really wasn't needed amongst too very smart men in this field. You know, a 'we both know this so why are we debating this type of thing'.

This has been a battle of semantics really, because, as I see it, what was actually being debated was never really clarified, not in the debate or since.

And of course there was more to this recent uprising, that singled out Dr.Fuhrman than green vegetables or starches. I think his reply, shed some light on that; and where needed, I think apologies have been made.

Both these men are up to different aspects of study within the plant based / nutrition community. It's not just a get along with your colleagues thing. This is simply nutritional research in action and people can agree to disagree, especially when a whole new idea is being revealed, even if it seems like the same thing. But it doesn't have to turn indecent or political. In addition to all the points they commonly promote, each is breaking new ground for us all for sure.

I learned a ton about starches in Dr. McDougalls book, among so many other new and revealing ideas.

So let's learn from them both. It's all amazing. I look forward to reading further findings, books etc, from both of these leaders throughout the year.

Life is short and both (all) of these men are warriors in this field. You seem like very caring people who want the best for this community we all participate in.
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Re: Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

Postby patty » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:25 pm

I am praying this too will pass. Dr. McDougall says it all in "The Starch Solution."

Ho'oponopono I am sorry, Please forgive me, Thank you, I love you!

Aloha, patty
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