Discussion Board

How can two highly respected doctors McDougall and Fuhrman who have access to the same vitamin D studies be so different in their recommendations on supplementation. McDougall says no vitamin D supplements and Fuhrman says yes.

Who do you believe? My vitamin D level recently tested at 10.7. I wrote to McDougall and he referred me to his article on vitamin D which recommends no supplements. Even last spring and summer where I exposed most of my body to the sun five days a week, I developed a deep tan but my vitamin D tested at 19.

So what does a plant foods vegan do . . . supplement or no.

Sal Liggieri

Here is just one article I found:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitami ... ty/AN02008

How much would an individual have to take to raise the serum level of vitamin D before it became toxic to that individual? Would taking the RDA satisfy the D requirements and raise levels to whatever is considered an acceptable level? Even if one took enough vitamin D to raise serum levels would that guarantee the health effects one would expect from that level? I have three bottles of D3 that I just bought. Two of them (from a two for one sale) are 1000 units and are in a gel capsule dissolved in soy oil and one bottle is 600 units in a dry form. I have not even opened the bottles yet because I cannot make up my mind whether or not to take them. I have not been tested for vitamin D and should be before I make any decision.

I am looking forward to the answer to your question.

Didi

My physician told me I was "deficient" with a Vitamin D level of 23! Most of the research I did after the fact was that 23 was considered by many to be a normal level. I was prescribed 50,000 IU weekly to increase my number to a "normal" level. After 3 months of taking this supplement weekly my Vitamin D level rose from 23 to 34, which my physician said is now normal. Although he said he would like to see it higher. Again, I don't agree with some of the information he has been feeding me.

If you are interested you can read what I wrote about Vitamin D on January 25, January 27 and finally a month later on February 27. I did read what Dr. McDougall had to say about Vitamin D and I even posed the question to Jeff Novick and he was in line with Dr. McDougall that it was not needed.

Stangely enough my wife's level was only 15 when she had her blood test a few months ago. Yet her doctor said 1000 IU daily would suffice. That really caused me stop and do research on why there are so many different recommendations and levels.

3 years ago I had my vit D level tested and it was 43. I began
taking 10,000 IU of D and did so daily for 5 months. Then I got retested.
My level was then 89.9. My doctor said that number was high but not toxic. She told me to cut back to
2000 IU a day for awhile. So I did. I went on 2000 IU for about 6 more months then got retested
and I was at 73. So I now take 5000 IU a day during the winter and 2000IU a day
in spring summer and fall.

someone on this forum posted this awhile back:

ENDOCRINE CARE
Low Vitamin D Status despite Abundant Sun Exposure
N. Binkley, R. Novotny, D. Krueger, T. Kawahara, Y. G. Daida, G. Lensmeyer, B. W. Hollis and M. K. Drezner
- Author Affiliations

University of Wisconsin Osteoporosis Clinical Research Program (N.B., D.K., T.K., M.K.D.), Madison, Wisconsin 53705; Human Nutrition, Food and Animal Sciences (R.N., Y.G.D.), University of Hawaii at Manoa, Honolulu, Hawaii 96822; Laboratory Medicine (G.L.), University of Wisconsin, Madison, Wisconsin 53792; and Medical University of South Carolina (B.W.H.), Charleston, South Carolina 29425

I listened to T. Colin Campbell on the symposium hosted by John Robbins last night and he commented on vitamin D levels. John Robbins noted that almost everyone is measuring low and wanted Dr. Campbells take on the situation.
Dr. Campbell noted that what we are really measuring is the storage capacity of vitamin D and he believes everyones storage capacity to be variable and independant from whether we are really "deficient" or not. He seems to believe it's not as important as the news indicates. I thought it was interesting given Dr. McDougalls comments about everyone seeming to test low.
f1jim

You have to do what you think is right for you. I've been working to get my D up for almost 2 years. If I can get it to 20 I think I'll be satisfied. At least I won't be deficient. I don't really do well in the sun anymore. Maybe it's the desert sun. HOT. Too much just fries me and makes me nauseated. Small doses (5 or 10 minutes) are generally okay and enough to pink up my skin. I did the typically prescribed high dose D cap once a week for 8 weeks and have followed that with a high dose cap once a month. I try to get out in the direct sun once or twice a day for a limited period of time. Mostly I sun my arms and legs, but occasionally I'll lift my shirt and sun my belly. I'll be going back to get bloodwork in a few months. We'll see how it goes.

I really don't like the idea of a daily pill supplement. I don't know that I'd want to have to live that way, especially if I didn't have to.

There are several discussions about vitamin D in the forum if you do a search.

Just goes to show that two very intelligent, highly trained and experienced people can look at the data and come to different conclusions. I think the scientific term for that is "horses for courses," or maybe not.

It does seem to be a bit of a crap shoot either way at this point as evidenced by the disagreement of experts. So ya pays yer money an takes yer chances...

Funny, Geoffrey!

I chalk it up to locational & personal attitudes. Dr. McD is a laid back wind-surfing California dude, whereas Dr. F is a hard driving, in-your-face, stuck in an office Jersey guy.

Dr. McD prefers to get his exercise outdoors; Dr F mostly indoors (skating) and when he does exercise outdoors, it's usually winter skiing.

Californians have sun most of the year. Those of us here in Jersey celebrate the rare times it's out.

Since I'm an Irish/Hungarian heritage Jersey girl with a history of skin cancer and rosacea, I'll follow Dr. F's quidelines and supplement. My primary care doc is keeping track of the levels of not only Vitamin D but also liver enzymes to make sure things stay in the normal ranges. My initial Vit D level was <4, now in the low 30's with 5000 iu 3 x weekly.

Do you know anyone who has been diagnosed with a medical condition caused by D deficiency?

Nope, just another way doctors push big pharma by adding another prescription to your medical cabinet.

I think it's a little more complicated than that. People with low vit D can get more colds and flus. My bone density stabilized once I began taking regular vitamin D. People develop dementia over a long period of time and cancer comes on that way too sometimes. Poor vitamin D status in the elderly is associated with chronic pain. Vitamin D works by lowering insulin resistance, which is one of the major factors in heart disease. It is also used by the thyroid gland, which secretes a hormone that regulates the body's levels of calcium, which in turns helps regulate blood pressure. There are MANY medical conditions that low vitamin D can play a role in.

VeggieSue, I have often thought a very similar thing when comparing the two doctors' recommendations and general attitudes! And Geoffrey Levens, you are funny, too!


Low Vitamin D has also been correlated with autoimmune disease, whereas "adequate" Vitamin D has been correlated with decreased autoimmune disease risk, but it is a chicken-and-egg type thing, I think.


As someone with an autoimmune disease and initially "low" vitamin D levels, I do take some as a supplementat right now, but I cannot really say with confidence that it is definitely the right thing to do. Just something I am trying out right now.

Here is an interesting study that investigates the relationship between obesity and vitamin D sequestration in fatty tissue. It looks like the obesity epidemic may partially explain the high incidence of low vitamin D levels.

http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v16/n ... 0723a.html

~ Erin

I think Dr Fuhrman also plays tennis.

I used to live in CA (grew up there, outdoor exerciser) and surf several times a week, then hang out on the beach. Also running on the beach... Vitamin D tested about 21 or so. And I was getting at least 1 or 2 colds per winter and influenze once every couple years. When I bumped it up to 45-55 with supplements I completely stopped getting colds and flu, not a trace for over 10 years! If takes me about 8000 i.u. per day to stay in that range.

Cause is an interesting word.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ind ... l-disease/

Wouldn't it be nice if life were simple--and we wouldn't need to wait for a rooster to lead us to the hen that laid all those eggs in our basket? I don't know. Maybe life without chickens would be boring.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitami ... N=evidence :
Vitamin D deficiency
Vitamin D deficiency is associated with various diseases, such as bone loss, osteoarthritis, cognitive issues, kidney disease, respiratory concerns, diabetes, gastrointestinal issues, cardiovascular disease, etc. Vitamin D supplementation can help prevent or treat vitamin D deficiency.

I don't think Dr. McDougall has said that deficiency or insufficiency of vitamin D doesn't or hasn't or won't or can't contribute to or cause health problems. His position on the issue appears to be that he questions the higher levels that some consider insufficient. As I understand it, his conclusion is that normal/sufficient is (should be considered) 20 or greater. He recommends sun exposure as the best way to get D. His second option is tanning booths and sun beds, which I personally have an aversion to and would choose last and probably then only under duress. He does not recommend vitamin D supplements for most people. Note that he wrote most people. (This was in the March 2011 newsletter article.) He didn't write that he never recommends or would never recommend a vitamin D supplement for anyone ever.

I don't know anyone who's been to the moon on a rocket, but I do know someone who says she can astral travel. I also know there are probably millions of people--and I know several--who will tell you they're going to or hoping to go to a place called Heaven when they die even though there's really no proof it exists. So what? I wonder if there are chickens there....I wouldn't want to be bored.



Have a great day, everyone! Or just do the best you can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o59S7C1nYfc