Discussion Board

Dr. Fuhrman discusses the issue of hemorrhagic stroke in his book Eat to Live.
He explains that the high stroke risk in Asian populations comes from their high intake of salt. In the West, there is a high intake of fat as well as salt. He explains that this might offer some protection because the high fat intake causes atherosclerosis which stiffens the veins and arteries,thus enabling Westerners' blood vessels to withstand their high blood pressure. Unfortunately, this is not a good solution because it leads to high levels of ischemic stroke, heart attacks etc. The solution according to Dr. Fuhrman is for those who eat a plant based diet to make sure to eat very little salt, which should enable us to have the best of both worlds: low risk of ischemic stroke and also low risk of hemorrhagic stroke. (He also recommends eating some raw nuts, which he says show protection against both types of stroke.)

I haven't read every reply on this blog, but I do know that there are factors other than diet that can play a role in increased susceptibility to stroke. My husband's family on his mother's side has a history of stroke. His grandfather, aunt and mother all suffered from strokes. Also his two youngest brothers have had blood clots. They did genetic tests on his youngest brother and found that he carries a gene that causes blood clots that can possibly cause a stroke. It has nothing whatsoever to do with diet.


**edited to correct a typo

this brings up an important aspect of understanding of disease....we need to know our genetic makeup.......
exactly what problems are we faced with and what can be done about that problem as far as FOOD...
harry

thanks for sharing more information on Dr.Fuhrman's thoughts, Concerned, that was pretty much my understanding of the issue prior to reading this study however it refers to the actual structural integrity of the arteries and this being improved with increased growth factor (it's also suggested this may be why taller people are less susceptible to this type of stroke) so it's not just an issue of the arteries being strengthened through atherosclerosis ...also, I'm assuming this is not the same manner in which nuts and seeds would offer benefit (I doubt he would be recommending them otherwise), does Dr.Fuhrman explain this process in ETL or is it just a matter of correlation?

Smoking is also a risk for stroke and rates of smoking in China are quite high. There was a high rate of hemorrhagic stroke in Japan until after WWII when it began to decrease due to changes in dietary patterns. Prior to WWII their diet consisted of mostly rice, vegetables and fish with high salt consumption and very low fat intake. After WWII their diet gradually became more Westernized. I've also read studies on PubMed indicating increased incidence of hemorrhagic stroke associated with vegan diets. There is definitely a genetic component to risk of hemorrhagic stroke as I know because my family has a strong history of this. I've done some research trying to determine whether or not I'm increasing my risk of this kind of stroke by eating vegan. One bit of research reported in the book Becoming Vegan by Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina showed higher hemorrhagic strokes among "pesco vegetarians" (those who eat a primarily plant based diet with the addition of fish, as in Japan) and a relatively lower risk among those who eat a "lacto vegetarian" diet (plant based with the addition of dairy, such as the Hindu people have traditionally consumed).

From the McDougall newsletter I posted the link to above:



You can see above that he cites rural japanese farmers and the article of concern is talking about chinese and Asian rural populations. This McD quote gives us a clue to just how high high is as far as salt, though it is not stated that this Japanese population is near vegan - though it might be sepculated to be so.

Personally, I do not add salt to my McD MWL foods, with the exception of some low sodium gluten free soy sauce - which is not really low in sodium by these standards. Still that's not often and I really think - the McD figure and Jeff's figure are not that far off from each other.

the prevention of hemorrhagic stroke is healthy blood vessels and low blood pressure. I don't know why either of those would contradict a low fat vegan diet... Just because rural people in china have a few more of these doesn't mean they are caused by a low fat diet... it could also be caused by rural people continuing to work lifting heavy items into old age...

You do need some salt/iodine. Correct?

You need iodine, a little, but you don't need to add salt to get it. A pinch of seaweed a couple times a week will generally give you enough to cover.

Has it been demonstrated that the lack of plaque in arteries really is the causation factor for the weak blood vessels found in vegans? Considering that the vegan diet in nature is relatively low sodium, I'm hopeful that the sodium is the only issue for higher incidence of strokes in vegans...rather than additional issues like DHA deficiencies!

I am at a loss to know why doctor McDougall does not worry about salt on the table because the experts in hospitals give heart attack patients diets with up to 2000 mgs of salt. Having just been hospitalized after a heart attack, I can say that if you wanted to imitate what the experts in the hospital offer patients after a heart attack you would be happy to allow sausage, eggs, roast beef, baked macaroni and cheese, chocolate cake, chocolate milk and chocolate ice cream. And oily salad dressings. I could not even get plain balsamic vinegar or wine vinegar with a tossed salad, but each time I ordered balsamic vinegar, it came to my room with oil floating on top. Once they sent up plain white vinegar which I did not use. At home I wash my windows and mirrors and shower curtain with white vinegar.

Didi

Just for clarification, Dr. McDougall doesn't ban the salt shaker because if you follow his diet and you are eliminating the processed foods you are eliminating about 70+% of the sodium in the American diet. Also his recipes and recommended prepared foods are not cooked with large amounts of salt. That leaves plenty of room for a small amount of salt for taste at the table staying well under recognized limits for health. He is not encouraging additional sodium consumption but allowing some elbow room when the vast majority of sodium has been curtailed with a healthy diet.
f1jim

I guess we have gone off the original posters topic which is really about the IGF 1 as relates to hemorrhagic strokes. I am still interested in seeing something expert posted on that, but to answer this question directed to me - and I am not expert on any of this, but here goes with a few valid type research links on the salt issue at the end



I have been using the cronometer to plot out my daily menus. For some reason, that Jeff could easily explain, it calls my daily sodium need out at 626.5 mg, whereas Jeff has put it at about 1400 and Dr. McD uses I think 1600 mg.

On a typical day I will exceed the cronometer limit with out adding any salt to my food, but won't get above Dr. McDs limit (except on days where I used prepared salsa - which is really high in sodium, though I buy the least amount I can in this kind of food). But things like celery in my salad will have lots, as do other typical foods. Even my Eden beans low sodium have seaweed in them, but at a hugely lower level then the cronometer shows for other canned beans.

I don't know if I am doing this correctly - I have relied on the chronometer - but from what I can see using it, there is no reason for me to add any salt at the table to my food. So, I am off to do more research.

Here are two references that make me think that Dr. McD and Jeff N have given us the right levels for maximum salt intake and that getting your salt from food is sufficient and a few limited shakes are OK up to their recommendations. As for the IGF 1 stuff the references are all over the place on that and it looks like it is related to increased cancers ( particularly prostate).

Here is Dr. Fuhrman on youtube discussing the dangers of salt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juIfyucDSNQ

And this is from the Center for Science in the Public Interest: it is very comprehensive in dealing with the subject of salt intake and covers all current recommendations for levels from a variety of sources. I personally like the lowest range one, which has the added benefit of age adjustments.

"Salt: The Forgotten Killer"
http://cspinet.org/salt/saltreport.pdf

I would think that there is another consideration: If you live in a hot climate and are outside a lot you will probably lose much more sodium through perspiration than people in other locations or those staying mostly in airconditioned buildings. The same would apply to people who work out a lot and sweat profusely.

Thanks for all these replies to my post. I did not have internet for the last week here in Panama and I just got it back.
I understand the issues around salt and high pb and stroke. Still not clear on the IGF 1. But I can keep researching and will read all the references posters have made. Vegans have to die of something...maybe we just get to throw the main breaker since the other parts refuse to give out!!!