Discussion Board

Whereas, Dr Fuhrman contends high carbs is bad for diabetes, Dr Barnard says high carbohydates is good for diabetes. Dr Barnard contends the key is having very low fat in your muscles ("Dr. Neal Barnard’s Program for Reversing Diabetes"). What Dr Barnard says in his book is summarized in the following.

Excerpt from web article: Q: Tell us how the diet works on a cellular level.

When someone has diabetes, insulin (the hormone produced in the pancreas) has a difficult time moving sugar out of the bloodstream and into that person’s cells. That’s because tiny amounts of fat in the person’s cells prevent the insulin from “opening” the cell membrane, or what can essentially be thought of as a lock. Instead, these bits of fat—which build up when a person eats a high-fat diet—clog up the cell and the insulin can’t do its job. With the low-fat vegan diet, however, individuals can essentially alter what goes on in their cells. By eliminating most fat from their diet, that person is basically cleaning up his or her cells, which allows the insulin to move the glucose into the cells where it belongs.

The low-fat angle is also mentioned in Frequently Asked Questions about Diabetes (Physician Committee for Responsible Medicine, Dr Barnard, Pres. Board of Directors):

4. Why low-fat?
High-fat foods increase insulin resistance. Following a low-fat diet not only helps improve insulin’s action but will also help reduce blood sugar, aid weight loss, and lower your cholesterol.

5. How much fat is allowed?
By avoiding animal products and added oils you will be able to keep your total fat intake around 20 grams per day. To help meet this, look for foods that have no more than 2 to 3 grams of fat per serving.

I believe Dr McDougall explains the process differently. Comments?

This is very informative. How would Dr.Mcdougall's ideas differ? Thank you.

Correction. DrFuhrman's diet is high carb.
He is against refined carbs because they are not
Nutrient dense enough. They are pure junk food
(white rice, white flour, sugar, etc).
So removing refined carbs and limiting whole grains
Like he suggests for max weight loss doesn't make one
Against carbs.
I prefer dr.Fuhrman's ideas over others in some cases.
For example in his chocolate recipes he uses dates as
Sweetener, Barnard and others use white sugar, the mother
Of all junk. Why should one eat white sugar when
Dates exist? Or fruit exists? There is wisdom in it you see.
So yes go ahead call him anti junk carb, but not anti carb.

Adam I skimmed through a book of Fuhrman's and from what I remember he recommends huge amounts of vegetables and limited grains. Is that not accurate? Thanks.

But grains arent the only carbs.
Beans and fruit are carbs, if you eat 1 cup or
More of beans a day 4-6 sevings of fruit up to 1
Cup starch, that's lots of carbs already, no?
Anti low fat yes, but carbs still dominate fat and protein.
So we would have to define what is meant by high carb.
If it means low fat then yes fuhrman is against it, but
If it means more carb then fat and protein then no.

Well, thanks for clarifying that. Now I know why I don't agree with Fuhrman. I believe in going as low in fat and as high in unprocessed carbs like beans and whole grains as possible. I know I personally feel better this way.

When one cuts down severely on fat, some other nutrient has to climb, and it's usually carbs. I believe, from everything I'm reading, that populations who eat the most unprocessed grains, fruit, veg, beans and minimal fat are the healthiest.

Don't meant to stir the pot, but I guess we all have to pick and choose what we feel is healthiest for ourselves.

You are welcome, and I agree 100% with your view just as most people here would. I see nothing wrong with whole grains and starch.
I love it.

I tend to agree with Dr. McDouall. I remember growing up hearing "you've never seen a fat Chinaman" and in the 70's and 80's that was true!! They have also always maintained very very low rates of diabetes, until recently now that the western fast food is all the rage!! And yet for all those years, 100's of them they have eaten white rice.

Dr. M says that millions of Chinese eat white rice....and yet eating this refined "junk" as Dr F calls it, they've not had the diabetes rates the US has.

So I'm more inclined to not sweat the white rice. And I say this as one who just received an email saying eating white rice has more diabetes risk. Yep, the title of the email from Dr F says more white rice more diabetes risk.

I say Dr M has this correct as the millions of Chinese eating white rice with no diabetes can't be wrong.

Just my 2 cents.

Debbie what a neat blog! I just took a glimpse at it. I always love to read how others are doing this since there is no one in my life following a plan that comes even close to this. That's why I love this forum.

Thanks for sharing.

I love this discussion as to the optimal diet.
As a pt with heart disease I think the evidence supports with Drs B and E that a low fat diet with no oil is the way go.

I think the white rice issue is interesting in that the brown rice might be marginally better, but as long as the rest of your diet is clean white rice as Dr M says is not a big deal

I do not agree with Dr F that supplements other than B12 are at all necessary, but do agree with Dr F that getting as many antioxidants and phytonutrients as well as much fiber from whole unprocessed food as possible is very important

In the final analysis I end up eating a lot of starches as try as I may I can only stuff my face with so many fruits and veggies every day and the starches are what satisfies my hunger

As Dr Campbell might say all the noise these guys make when taken together makes for a nice "Symphony"

Thanks for views on Fuhrman. I started this thread on how Dr Neal Barnard views carbs (i.e. the highly nutritious kind, unprocessed, unrefined) on diabetes, and his belief that if fat is kept to very low levels, the muscle cells are receptive to accepting glucose from the blood steam -- without need to taking insulin.

Does Dr McDougall agree with Dr Barnard's belief in regards to high fat would inhibit cells ability to accept glucose. Perhaps, McDougall has a different belief on the cell mechanism for enabling high carbs to be ok, with respect to diabetes, and given the McDougall dietary approach.

Just thought I would chime in here and say that my type 2 husband does a lot of blood glucose testing, and while he can tolerate many wholesome carbs (brown rice, black rice, quinoa, lentils) oats and potatoes will spike him 200+ which can't be a good thing, so we avoid them. As his weight loss is relatively new, we are hoping that eventually his sensitivity to insulin will return as a result of following the McDougall maximum weight loss diet.

I've been teasing him that not being able to eat potatoes is his penance for getting fat