Heart disease reversed

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

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Re: Good luck to you, Mrs. D

Postby Mrs. Doodlepunk » Wed May 13, 2009 6:03 am

SactoBob wrote:Mrs. D, if my story gave you any motivation to get down and do what it takes to be adherent, it is worth the world to me.


I am now going on 5 years knowing the truth about this diet. At first, Mr. D and I were 100 percent, he lost 25 pounds and we both had amazing health benefits. I convinced my mother to give it a try a few years ago and she had amazing results too.

For myself, I can really see the benefit of having a definite problem or disease diagnosed as a motivating factor for adherence. I've lost several family members - some were first cousins - to heart disease, one was 42 and male, the other was 49 and female, sudden cardiac death - which as my cardiologist friend put it, is "quite distressing". No kidding.

So, being around here and reading your posts occasionally right from the start of this program for you, I know what you did and feel as if I know you. It hits hard to read that someone I "know" has had amazing results. I'm re-reading Dr. E's book and trying some new recipes this week. Cleaned out the refrigerator and bought new food. Told the boys that when their mayo and cheese is gone, it's gone. They are NOT happy.

I know from past experience that it was the hardest thing I ever did to change our eating habits, but after a couple months it was second nature. I need to just get back in that groove and I know I can do it. Dragging everyone along with me makes it harder but I did it before so I'm sure I can do it again.
It IS the food! :unibrow:
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Re: Dr. Esselstyn

Postby Nettie » Wed May 13, 2009 8:47 am

SactoBob wrote:.....I was ready to do anything I needed to do, but as it turned out, the books, dvds, this board, and Jeff were enough to get me quickly to 100% adherence.....


So, for about a hundred bucks in books and DVDs, there was no cost to the program. This is in contrast to the thousands of dollars you would have spent on surgery and the required drug regimen that would follow. :eek:

The cardiologist industry would collapse in on itself in just a few years if everyone ate this way!

Good for you, Bob! You're an inspiration to many. And bless your wife, for going along with you on this. That made it easier, I'm sure.

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Re: Dr. Esselstyn

Postby Mrs. Doodlepunk » Wed May 13, 2009 8:58 am

Nettie wrote:The cardiologist industry would collapse in on itself in just a few years if everyone ate this way!


I just read this morning in Dr. Esselstyn's book about a cardiologist he knew who - when Dr. E asked him why cardiologists don't refer more patients for diet therapy for heart disease - the guy told him one thing. His billable hours for the previous year were five million dollars. Five Million Dollars. From my reading of the paragraph over and over, it appears that this is the billable hours from just one interventional cardiologist.
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Cost

Postby SactoBob » Wed May 13, 2009 9:43 am

Nettie and Mrs. D -
You are correct about the great cost of surgery. The costs I've seen are well over $50,000 for a CABG.

One thing that I definitely do not understand at all. These are tough economic times, and I don't understand how insurers and employers can tolerate paying these big bucks for surgery and drugs for what is essentially a procedure to enable the patient to continue on a rich diet without pain while the disease progresses.

It is amazing that insurance companies have no trouble picking up the tab for what seems like a silly operation. I don't know of any insurance company that will pick up the tab for a breast augmentation or a tummy tuck for a person who would like to look better. But there is no trouble picking up the tab for somebody who wants to continue eating rich foods without chest pain. How can that be? How much money would be saved on health care if insurance companies picked up the tab for a McDougall program? How many patients would opt for the surgery if they knew the facts?

As a lawyer, I wonder why it is not an unfair business practice for the cardiologists to not inform patients of the benefits of lifestyle intervention?
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Re: Cost

Postby Mrs. Doodlepunk » Wed May 13, 2009 10:15 am

SactoBob wrote:As a lawyer, I wonder why it is not an unfair business practice for the cardiologists to not inform patients of the benefits of lifestyle intervention?


As a registered nurse who has spent lots of time around doctors, I think it's because they honestly don't know. They are brainwashed into thinking pills and procedures help people, not food.

My own internist, when I told him about the amazing disappearance of my long term GERD symptoms, told me it was impossible that diet did that. He said there had to be an unknown variable that had changed, because "everyone knows you treat GERD with H2 blockers or proton pump inhibitors." I am pretty sure he was dead serious. He also told me that I would never lose weight eating this way, and I should "stuff" myself with grilled salmon and buttered asparagus. He totally missed the ball on my hypothyroidism too, because he was going by TSH test results and never symptoms.

I could go on, but the point is that doctors are trained by medical schools that are funded in large part by pharmaceutical companies. Follow the money, and it leads to that. I am not saying I don't like pharm companies, I have had my life saved by drugs, twice. But I think people need to be informed so they can make a decision. Right now, doctors are not informing because THEY don't know. They need more research studies, that is what my internist friend was looking at - the studies done by Atkins and company. Ugh.
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Re: Cost

Postby Ed Miller » Wed May 13, 2009 10:19 am

SactoBob wrote:One thing that I definitely do not understand at all. These are tough economic times, and I don't understand how insurers and employers can tolerate paying these big bucks for surgery and drugs for what is essentially a procedure to enable the patient to continue on a rich diet without pain while the disease progresses.


I think it's a balancing act for insurance companies. The bigger the medical industry is (in dollars) the bigger their profits can be because the more they can charge in PREMIUMS. The insurance companies have an incentive to make sure health care stays costly. If health care became genuinely affordable, people would just skip the insurance... or at least be willing to pay only modest premiums for it.

But if the insurance pays for too many procedures, then they obviously lose profits.

So they need to pay for just enough procedures to make people feel like they NEED to have health insurance, and that they HAVE to pay the exorbitant premiums... and then no more beyond that.

If you step back and view the whole picture, expensive cardiac care in this country represents an enormous transfer of wealth from patients and their employers to doctors and insurance companies. So the insurance companies definitely have an incentive to keep servicing it.
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Re: Cost

Postby Clary » Wed May 13, 2009 10:37 am

SactoBob wrote: As a lawyer, I wonder why it is not an unfair business practice for the cardiologists to not inform patients of the benefits of lifestyle intervention?


There is a long list of answers to your question, as I feel sure you know many, but, there is also hope, through legislative channels.

Did you see these notices, from Dr. McDougall? We need much more of this type of "medical intervention".

Urgent: Support the Proposed New Law in California Requiring Doctors to Provide Patients with Information on Diabetes and Heart Disease

Assembly Bill 1492
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/mar/urgent.htm

Urgent: Support the Proposed New Law in California Requiring Doctors to Provide Patients with Information on Diabetes and Heart Disease. Part 2 - Diabetes

Assembly Bill 1478
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/ ... betes2.htm
"LIFE always begins again." --Edmond Bordeaux Székely
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Postby dlb » Wed May 13, 2009 10:51 am

It's not just a question of insurance companies and premiums. You must also look at all the people on social security, disability, and other government sponsored health care. And then there is care for the uninsured. How long before this system collapses?

But how do you build in responsibility? Do we say anyone who is over weight cannot get health care. That would be about two thrids of the country. How about children who are not really making their own informed decisions? How about anyone who smokes or drinks?

What can be done? The first step is to lead by example. Bob has done this. He has also shared his story so that others can learn and be inspired.

Making the change isn't easy: learning new ways to cook and eat, going through cravings, the curiosity and sometimes criticism of others.

But it does get easier once you've accomplished that first step. Pretty soon it becomes habit. One that gives you a trim body, vibrant health, great energy, a positive outlook.

To all of you who are new to this or who are struggling - hang in there - it works and it's soooo worth it!

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Postby Melinda » Wed May 13, 2009 5:20 pm

I don't know what has been done in the US but here in Canada behaviour like smoking has become a lot more socially unacceptable. The same was done with driving while drinking many years ago. I am certainly not saying that no one ever drives without drinking, but it IS socially unacceptable. No one in BC is allowed to smoke in the workplace, and patients are not allowed to smoke on hospital grounds. Also no smoking in bars and restaurants. I'm thinking we have to do the same with eating junk food - make it socially unacceptable to abuse one's body with unhealthy foods. (I'm not talking about everyone becoming vegan, but there is a lot of bad habits to cut out between SAD and Mcdougall)
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Postby Melinda » Wed May 13, 2009 5:24 pm

Another point I should add is that business gives consumers what they want - so if more people demand healthier food, business will comply and find a way to profit while doing it.
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Re: Cost

Postby Mrs. Doodlepunk » Thu May 14, 2009 4:18 pm

SactoBob wrote:One thing that I definitely do not understand at all. These are tough economic times, and I don't understand how insurers and employers can tolerate paying these big bucks for surgery and drugs for what is essentially a procedure to enable the patient to continue on a rich diet without pain while the disease progresses.


I don't understand that either. Another thing that just amazes me is when people say "I have to have my _____." Fill in with steak, cheese, whatever. I know people with a bad family history who will not even try this diet. All of the doctors they see tell them that olive oil is healthy, and eating nuts every day is good, and that low fat diets really don't work, all the lies that WE know are not true! It's so frustrating to see the results of research used so poorly.

One doctor actually told this friend that now doctors are starting to see the wisdom of the Atkins program, because there have been studies done that show it actually works.

So, this person takes the statin drug and eats meat and fried fish.

IMO, there need to be more studies done and published that drown out the noise from all the other junk from the animal food industry.
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Postby Melinda » Mon May 25, 2009 9:03 am

What I really liked about Sactobob's story is that he emphasized in his posts that he simply chose from the wide variety of foods available to him on this plan. I hope that when writing your Star Mcdougaller story, Bob, that you emphasize that factor. That specific point helped me create a change in attitude - from focusing on what I couldn't have, to focusing on all the foods I COULD enjoy. I truly believe that attitude change is key to improving my adherence. Thanks!
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Many, Many, foods available

Postby SactoBob » Mon May 25, 2009 10:03 am

That is a key, Melinda. At first, I wondered what I would eat. The produce section of the market used to be like a foreign country, and I couldn't understand whats people would find there that was even edible.

I had no idea how many different foods were available. It took me awhile for my taste to adjust, but I enjoy my food as much as ever. My favorite food is a relatively recent discovery - Japanese Sweet Potatoes. They have enabled me to get my weight loss going again. They are so tasty that they must be somewhat calorie dense. But the good thing is that they really compliment any type of crisp green or vegetable, and act like a salad dressing in that they taste great with anything that is even a bit bitter, like salad greens. They just balance it off, and I am now consuming mass quantities of greens and vegetables using the sweet potatoes to balance it off.

But you are right in that you need a mind set of exploration and openness instead of a mindset of deprivation and punishment. There is really no down side to this lifestyle that I have found except for the social and convenience aspects. That can change as more people adopt this lifestyle.
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Good post Melinda!

Postby f1jim » Mon May 25, 2009 11:27 am

If enough of us get hooked on this way of eating we can force supermarkets to expand the produce section and shrink the prepackaged items sections. It's going to take work and loud voices because they make a heck of a lot more money on packaged garbage then they do on potatoes and lettuce. The opportunity is there, however, to expand their offerings and make it up in exotic fruits and vegetables. Wouldn't it be something, in our lifetime, to see berries and kiwi's replace ice cream and chocolate?
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Re: Cost

Postby MilesA » Mon May 25, 2009 12:36 pm

SactoBob wrote:As a lawyer, I wonder why it is not an unfair business practice for the cardiologists to not inform patients of the benefits of lifestyle intervention?

The majority don't believe lifestyle intervention really works. This is the major problem -- the peer group.

Doctors are rewarded for practicing the current way and punished for practicing otherwise. Questioning the majority opinion is just too risky, so the alternatives are walled-off.

The penalty could include being ostracized by peers, denied employment or promotion, etc. I mean, would you really want to be accused of malpractice? Would you like to be scorned, ridiculed and humiliated? To find out other doctors don't want to work with you? Of course you wouldn't.

As a cardiac surgeon, you get to be a star. You are the center of attention in the operating room. People's lives are in your hands. People look up to you. You are doing some good in the world and making a ton of money. You spent long, difficult years in school to get here. Why would you trade that for a career as a dietician? Are you insane?

Cue cognitive dissonance. These lifestyle interventions just cannot be effective!
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